Piloting/Driving Combat in RPGs is No Fun!

[MGibster]

I picked up the new Alien rpg last week and while I haven't run it yet I think it's a pretty good game. I thought it was a bit odd that the author's tacked on a Pilot character class and devoted a few pages to ship-to-ship combat because that's not something we see a lot of in the Alien franchise. For the most part, vehicles are either where the scenario is set (Alien) or a way to get somewhere (Aliens). But it got me thinking: Have I ever played an RPG where piloting/driving vehicles in combat was fun? And I really couldn't think of any.

I should have a lot of fun flying an X-Wing in any version of Star Wars but whether we're talking the original WEG or the more recent FFG I just find it tedious. Ship-to-ship combat in Rogue Trader was dull as dishwater, vehicle combat in Savage Worlds is "stupid" as my players describe it, and I don't even remember it being particularly good in Mechwarrrior (unless we were just supposed to switch to Battletech rules). What gives?

Part of the problem is that not every character is useful when it comes to vehicle combat. In Rogue Trader you could have one personally essentially in control of all the guns, one person piloting, and a few other PCs who could contribute in meaningful ways but typically they were tedious tasks. In Star Wars so few skill points are given to PCs that it's hard to build someone who is competent on the ground and also in an X-Wing (so unlike the movies the game tries to emulate) and even with a pilot build combat isn't particularly fun.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but Palladium's Robotech might be the only game I've had a lot of fun with so far as vehicles go. But it's kind of a cheat because the rules for piloting a Veritech were pretty much the same rules you'd use for a PC outside their vehicle.

Anyone else have any problems with vehicle combat in RPGs? Or is it just me?

 

[Shiroiken]

While I've not actually played or run such a combat in any RPG, it is something I've considered. The ideal situation for such a combat would have all the players engaged in one of the following options: piloting (defense), weapons (attack), or engineering (repairing damage). Piloting would really only have 2 players max, and only if there were some rules for working together on a task. Weapons is limited to the number of weapons available. Engineering is unlimited however, and depending on the size of the ship, you can have the damage occur near one of the working players, keeping them all somewhat active.

 

[Fenris-77]

Piloting suffers the same problems that hacking does in various cyberpunk games - it doesn't involve all the characters. In both cases it also probably takes to long and often lacks drama and tension. In a game where the characters regularly aren't 'on screen' together it's maybe less of a problem, but it's still a problem.

The robotech answer is interesting and that's probably how I'd treat it. If you use the same mechanics, mostly, as any other part of the game, it might bog down less. I can't think of a set of vehicle rules that I really like that I've used extensively.

 

[JeffB]

I really enjoyed a session in FFG SW where we had a chase on a speeder bike catching up to an Scout Walker, and the combat going on.

That said, A later game where PC's in their stolen gunship had to hold off some Ties until the cavalry arrived (Xwings) was pretty bland.

Movies are awesome, but in a TTRPG I often find this sort of thing (and chases) works out better utilizing a narrative improvised "skill challenge" type of sequence instead of hard and fast rule systems. Otherwise just pull out Star Fleet Battles.

I've not used them but I will also say I found upon a read, that the way RIFTS works (which should be similar to Robotech) looks good on paper. But I have not used it.

 

[Zhaleskra]

This especially becomes a problem with systems that are more focused on the math. I'm supposed to work out the equations before the fight even happens? Speed of the ships, speed of the weapons. I mean sure I can do it, if I know in advance that a fight is going to occur in space, but I don't know that yet. I'm sure air vehicle combat has the same problem.

I do think it's slightly easier on the ground where you can have the scale of the weapons and scale of the damage to compare and you don't need to worry what percentage of light speed everything is going.

 

[Celebrim]

Part of the problem is that not every character is useful when it comes to vehicle combat.

I personally feel this is the essential problem and a problem that is not limited to vehicle combat, although vehicle combat does showcase the problem.

The problem has two forms:

a) The game has multiple subsystems and in order to succeed in that subsystem, you need to specialize. This isn't limited to just piloting a vehicle, but includes things like being a netrunner in cyberspace, or investigating a murder, or what have you. What you end up with is a team of solo adventurers who each can contribute to the party success, but never at the same time. This is one of the reasons I typically don't run science fiction games. They invariably have longer and longer lists of skills that encourage more and more extreme specialization. It's not possible to be reasonably competent at everything.

b) Tactical man to man combat has a nearly unique property in that it is a cooperative task were everyone can contribute toward success and everyone can regularly make real decisions in the task. There is a myth that games are combat focused because the rules mostly provide for combat. The truth is that most games are combat focused because that's one of the few things a whole party can regularly do together. There are all sorts of other challenges, but the problem with the tends to be that you really only need one person to solve them, or that only one person is actually making the decisions. Cooperating to fly a starship is one good example. You might have rolls that each member of the party can make, and the outcome of those rolls might be important, but really only the one person actually steering the vehicle is making any real decision. Everyone else is just rolling a dice and reporting the outcome, which quickly becomes tedious. Now, if you have only one player, this isn't much of a problem. But it's not a fun group activity.

It is very hard to solve both problems in a pen and paper game, but...

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but Palladium's Robotech might be the only game I've had a lot of fun with so far as vehicles go. But it's kind of a cheat because the rules for piloting a Veritech were pretty much the same rules you'd use for a PC outside their vehicle.

...that is how you do it. Put everyone in a separate vehicle and make sure that the vehicle piloting subsystem leverages skills that are used in other situations. If you do that, then you are just in a straight up combat situation with slightly different rules.

But again, this doesn't apply to vehicle combat. It's a general issue that has to be overcome in any system or for any particular process of play.

 

[Umbran]

Part of the problem is that not every character is useful when it comes to vehicle combat.

Ashen Stars (a Gumshoe-based game) solves this problem by having the party be a ship's crew, and each crew member has a role in ship combat, explicitly by design in character generation.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Depending on what kind of spaceships you're using, there's the possibility of weapon batteries, including synched multi-ship weapon batteries.

 

[Celebrim]

Depending on what kind of spaceships you're using, there's the possibility of weapon batteries, including synched multi-ship weapon batteries.

That only partially solves the problem. If the 'weapons officer' responsible for controlling the weapon batteries isn't making any real decisions and instead just rolls dice each round to determine damage to the target, then even though the 'weapons officer' is useful, playing the weapons officer is boring.

This is a fairly easy problem to solve in a video game where the weapons officer in charge of the weapons battery can be enjoying a reflex based visceral combat where his mind is fully engaged in the operation of the weapons battery. But it's a very hard problem to solve in a PnP game where none of that visceral experience is present in any form - no sounds, no sights, no pulse pounding action - and control of the battery is usually just in the hands of dice and your sole role is to roll them and report what they did.

 

[Zhaleskra]

I don't think it would be just one person, even if it is just one ship. There'd probably be a communications/navigation person checking the readings for expected locations of the target, and a gunner, at the very least.