Piracy

Have you pirated any 4th edition books?

  • Pirated, didn't like, didn't buy

    Votes: 77 21.2%
  • Pirated, liked it, but didn't buy

    Votes: 31 8.5%
  • Pirated it, liked it, went out and bought it

    Votes: 76 20.9%
  • Bought the book then pirated for pdf copy

    Votes: 93 25.6%
  • Never pirated any of the books

    Votes: 154 42.4%
  • Other/Random Miscellaneous Option

    Votes: 25 6.9%

But in both of these examples, you are trying to simply retain the same rights that you originally had -- the right to watch the movie, and the right to listen to the CD. You are not gaining any additional benefits.

Sure I am, if you want to be as nitpicky as you did with the PDFs. I'm gaining the ability to watch the movie while not connected to the internet and the right to listen to the CD while playing a game which requires its CD in the drive. If I then convert the movie to play on my PSP, I've gained portability I previously didn't have.

So these examples do not work as a counter to the argument I just presented that owning a PDF version of a book provides additional benefits that the purchaser of the book has not paid for.

Every format switch is going to result in the work providing different benefits. Especially if you can make these format switches yourself, or the difficulty inherent in doing it is only that the provider actively attempts to make it more difficult, the format switch is about as immoral as putting an unlicensed pad on the seat of your chair to make it more comfortable. ;)
 

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But in both of these examples, you are trying to simply retain the same rights that you originally had -- the right to watch the movie, and the right to listen to the CD. You are not gaining any additional benefits. So these examples do not work as a counter to the argument I just presented that owning a PDF version of a book provides additional benefits that the purchaser of the book has not paid for.

Except that you are given license to scan your book, OCR it, put in bookmarks and carry it around on your laptop if you buy a physical copy of the book.

So, I've already paid for the right to have a PDF. All the "additional benefits" you are talking about are already legally mine. The only thing you get out of downloading is the time it would have taken it to do the scanning, OCRing and bookmarking.

That's the problem with these sorts of discussions. When technology makes something so easy that its PERCEIVED value is nearly 0, people stop believing that it is morally wrong. How much do I perceive the amount of time it would take me to scan, OCR and bookmark one of my books to be worth? Around 1 dollar. If all my book prices increased 1 dollar and came with a PDF, I'd be happy. If companies asked me for the 1 dollar if I downloaded a PDF of it, I'd probably pay it.
 

Funny, since the Berne Convention most certainly applies to Switzerland (if I can assume you are there based on your location) and that explicitly provides that copyright law from the country where copyright is claimed shall apply to any signatory. Since WotC claims copyright in the US, and US copyright law supports what I've said, and since Switzerland is indeed a signatory (they wrote it), then US copyright law with regard to WotC books most definitely does apply in your country. The judges may laugh and dismiss the case, but the laws of your country still support what I've laid out here.

Sorry, but over here we're not as stupid as to believe that if you have the right to copy something that it matters how you copy it - provided that through your actions no one who is not allowed to gets a copy.

As you may notice - by downloading something I have a right to have a copy of (not through a torrent, but simple downloading without seeding it) I am not making it available to anyone who is not allowed to have it.

Now, if a PDF is available for sale I'll buy it - no matter if I already have the book or not in paper. But if there's no PDF available I'll get myself a copy if I want it - either through scanning, or downloading.

I do not pass on any PDFs I bought to anyone, and neither do my friends, but I draw the line at stupidity.
 

All the "additional benefits" you are talking about are already legally mine. The only thing you get out of downloading is the time it would have taken it to do the scanning, OCRing and bookmarking.
I do not think that buying a printed book gives you any legal rights to the additional benefits of a PDF version. You might be of the opinion that it gives you the moral right to those additional benefits, but that certain doesn't translate into legal rights!

And, according to Imbran, the time it would have taken you to do the scanning, OCRing and bookmarking is far from negligible:
As someone who's actually scanned and OCR'd an RPG book for his own use, it's not a negligible effort - I spent the better part of six hours on the darn thing and was using about $350 in equipment and professional software above and beyond just PCs, and I intentionally destroyed my book's binding in the process because I wanted a professional-quality digital copy more than the hardcopy book.
That sounds like a lot more than one dollar's worth of effort to me....
 

Just finished reading the thread, and it was a pretty good one.

I would just like to point out that some folk are clinging a little too tightly to the notion that "its a law and if you don't like, then you should change it, but until its changed you should obey it". I think that there are many laws and each should be weighed on its own merit and not be given the same weight just because its the law. Case in point Massachusetts was tired of arresting and processing people for smoking marijuana, as a result it was decriminalized. I can assure you that if everyone had been obeying the law and not smoking it, it would never have been decriminalized. It was the very refusal of people to obey the law which created the change.

This is not to say that this could not be taken to an extreme, it merely illustrates that sometimes willful disobediance is required to draw attention the laws that need to be fixed, or that sometimes people refuse to obey a specific law simply because its stupid (for example there are cities where spitting on the ground is against the law but you will never see anyone getting arrested for it even when done in the presence of an officer of the law).
 



I do not think that buying a printed book gives you any legal rights to the additional benefits of a PDF version. You might be of the opinion that it gives you the moral right to those additional benefits, but that certain doesn't translate into legal rights!
No, you really do have the legal right to change your media from any format to any other format(with all the advantages and disadvantages of each), if you are capable of making the transfer. If 3d books come out in the future, I'm allowed to change my hardcover books into 3d books, even if I didn't pay extra for the 3d version.

This has been covered a couple of times in the thread. You can turn your CD into MP3s, you can transfer your DVDs into video files on your hard drive so you can watch it on your laptop without carrying around the DVD.

The only caveat with this is that the DMCA made it illegal to bypass copy protection. What was happening was that people were ripping their CDs so they could listen to them anywhere and any time without the CD itself. Which the content providers didn't like, even though it was completely legal. So, when they made DVDs, they worked copy protection into the design, to make it nearly impossible to copy the information and used some other technology to make it difficult to copy using a VCR. Hackers eventually figured out the copy protection everyone was able to rip the data off of DVDs in order to use their legal right to transfer data from one format to another. So, the content providers lobbied the government to pass the DMCA, which says that it is illegal to bypass any form of copy protection.

IMHO, it seems kind of backward that we are legally allowed to copy stuff from one format to another, but the people who make that content are allowed to lock them down with copy protection and infringe on my rights as a consumer and the government not only allows them to but makes it illegal for me to bypass the copy protection. And people feel that I'm the thief and the law is moral.

And, according to Imbran, the time it would have taken you to do the scanning, OCRing and bookmarking is far from negligible:

That sounds like a lot more than one dollar's worth of effort to me....
It takes a decent amount of time, and you need to own a program to do it. That's basically it. You often have to destroy the spine of your book in order to get a good quality scan as well. But the process is still: put the book on a scanner, hit the scan button, hit the OCR button, then correct any mistakes the OCR program makes manually.

How much time it takes depends on the size and speed of your scanner and the accuracy of your OCR software. If you can scan 2 pages at once, quickly, and your OCR software makes nearly no mistakes, you can probably do an entire 300 page book in 2-3 hours or so. If you have a slow scanner, take the time to separate all of your pages, or do a lot of proofreading on the document to make sure the OCR did its job, then it might take you 10 hours.

Yes, I admit that if we're talking purely man hours, that it costs around 300 bucks to pay someone to do it. But it only needs to be done once and then sold to everyone who buys it. If you add a dollar to the price and sell 300 copies of it, you've already made your money back.

It's even easier to do if you are the original publisher of the book, because it might be a 30 minute conversion process that no one has to monitor from the original file rather than scanning your own book. No editing, no sitting there constantly putting pages on a scanner or anything. It costs almost nothing at all.
 


Funny, since the Berne Convention most certainly applies to Switzerland (if I can assume you are there based on your location) and that explicitly provides that copyright law from the country where copyright is claimed shall apply to any signatory. Since WotC claims copyright in the US, and US copyright law supports what I've said, and since Switzerland is indeed a signatory (they wrote it), then US copyright law with regard to WotC books most definitely does apply in your country. The judges may laugh and dismiss the case, but the laws of your country still support what I've laid out here.
I cannot believe that you think that US copyright law would apply anywhere outside of the US. You have seriously misunderstood the Berne Convention. The copyrights apply in the country of the signatory, not the copyright laws. That would be absurd.

And copyright laws can be very different in different countries. It's even allowed for in the Berne Convention (I think private use exceptions are covered in article 9, but I haven't got the actual text here) that signatories have different implementations of copyright laws.

US laws are not universal. Not even for US copyrighted works.
 
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