Pirating RPGs. (And were not talking "arggg" pirate stuff here.)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Storm Raven said:
As a result, the author is less likely to act in that way in the future. By making the intellectual property environment less lucrative, he will be less willing, and possibly less able to create more stuff for us to enjoy. He may decide to get out of the intellectual property creation business. He may decide not to offer .pdfs any more. Whatever he does, it is likely that less intellectual property will be created in the future. Is this a result that is desirable?

If the copyright laws were designed to stimulate creativity, stuff would enter public domain much sooner than 75 years after the authors demise. Under the current situation an artist isn't really motivated to create more stuff if he can earn for the rest of his life from single product. If that product gave him earnings for, say, 10 years, he might be more motivated to create more.

But the laws aren't there to do this like you say. They are there to keep mickey copyrighted for infinity ;)

The sweet spot isn't in zero ip protection, and it isn't in infinite (the most lucrative for artist) ip protection. Something inbetween.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Lazarous said:
The cost to make computer games is rising astronomically, just look at some of the talk on budgets for next gen console games (specifically how much higher they are than current games). The way that games are made is just being upscaled with higher graphics rather than changed fundametally, for the most part. Something like wil wright's spore is an example of a totally different take on how to create content for games.

Basically what all this is saying is that perhaps games shouldn't cost millions and require dozens of highly trained operatives to see them to fruition.
The same thing happened to movies over the last two decades or so. What used to be the entire budget of a movie in the late 70s or early 80s now barely pays the star's salary. True, some of that is due to inflation, but most of it is not.

The reason movies (and games) cost more is because the ones that have a lot of money spent on them are usually more popular. People really like what those big budgets can bring in terms of effects, stunts, etc. And if there's a strong demand for that, then yes, games (and movies) should rise to meet that demand. In fact, it's probably inevitable that they will.

So I completely reject your hypothesis that games shouldn't cost as much as they do or require the staff that they do.
 

Lazarous said:
The cost to make computer games is rising astronomically, just look at some of the talk on budgets for next gen console games (specifically how much higher they are than current games). The way that games are made is just being upscaled with higher graphics rather than changed fundametally, for the most part. Something like wil wright's spore is an example of a totally different take on how to create content for games.

I hear tell that Katamari Damacy was made by a programmer in his spare time because he thought that most of everything his company was producing was crap. It's one of my favourite games. They just slapped a slick soundtrack on it, cleaned it up a bit, and Bob's your uncle.
 

Lazarous said:
A thought about this matter - voluntary payments *really* scare modern corporations. You're pretty much destroying the underpinnings of a consumer society, that being you need to keep buying stuff. Economics is always about ways to deal with scarcity, and with modern information distribution methods, scarcity doesn't exist.

Actually, scarcity does exist. Try making the creation of intellectual property unprofitable and you will see the supply dry up considerably.
 

Storm Raven said:
Are you really trying to say that stealing something is okay because you wouldn't have bought it anyway?

It seems to me as if he's saying that the histrionics about piracy are unwarranted since there is no demonstrated connection between volume of piracy and loss of sales.

This isn't court. These aren't legal documents. Calling it theft is a moral condemnation of the actions. It is also a shorthand method of describing the action in question that is relatable to people who are not law school graduates that is less opaque than the term "criminal copyright infringement".

Perhaps some of us are still of the opinion that copyright infringement should still be a matter for the civil courts, and that equating it with theft is a cheap way of trying to make an emotional play for advantage, and we don't appreciate people attempting to manipulate us by using emotionally-charged language.

The Sigil said:
It's a reminder of simple economics. As price decreases, demand increases. The demand at the price point "free" was 136 copies.

Hmm...I wonder if some kind of review system could be devised based upon this premise. As in, if Book X were free, how many people would bother downloading it? If Book X would have more downloads than Book Y, and we can quantify this difference, do we have a relative quality measure? :cool:
 
Last edited:

jasper said:
The ravager is talking about libraries who have gotten a mother may I either from the authors or the publishers to lend their works out. Again pr campaign.

I assume that this is referring to me. And, at least I thought, I was just talking about normal regular public libraries.

When you think about it, some of the legal ways of getting a hold of copyright works (libraries, renting videos, barrowing from a friend, using Tivo,etc) are in effect no different than the illegal way(ie viewing or reading the product without compensating author -- denying them a sale), but when you talk about a library nobody thinks about it, but when you talk about online 'piracy' people come out of the wood work going OMG!1!!TEHHAXXXORS!!TEHTHIEVESOMG!z!1!!

I think my point is that there are tons of ways, legal and illegal, that people can view/read/use works without paying, or at least without paying the original author. And yet these industries survive.

Weird.
 

wingsandsword said:
The real problem is that our culture, and laws, were not created with this new technology. It's the ability to create copies cheaply and easily, almost effortlessly. If somebody invented Star Trek level Replicators that could just make almost anything in the blink of an eye, you could imagine the huge demand to have them banned or regulated. Food companies would be pushing for copyprotected foods, so you still have to buy their products. Copyprotected furniture, copyprotected clothes. There is a serious disconnect between the available technology, the underlying culture, and the business models and laws that exist within that culture to use that technology. I can imagine that a similar controversy happened at the dawn of the printing press, or with the advent of radio or records. This happens every time a new technology changes the way something that is created is distributed to the masses.
Actually, I can think of one great example off the top of my head that survives in copyright law today... the advent of player pianos.

Old technology: a musician playing sheet music on a piano.

New technology: a piano playing itself thanks to a "digital translation" of the music (as expressed on basically a large punchcard wrapped end-to-end).

Suddenly, you didn't have to hire a musician any more. You could buy a player piano instead! That's a big difference! Of course, the musicians (who were often also composers) wanted to restrict technology and would have refused to sell their music to the player piano companies.

Both sides lobbied government and we wound up with "compulsory licensing" for music - which survives today. It is a provision in copyright law that allows a musician (or player piano) to perform and sell their own rendition of *any* song without express permission from the copyright holder... in exchange for paying a nominal fee for each copy created (last I checked it was 8.5 cents per copy for a 5-minute or less song).

The player piano companies could make their own rendition of a copyrighted song (on those punchcards) and stick it in their pianos. In exchange, they had to pay a nominal fee to the songwriter for every copy they produced. The musicians got paid. The player piano companies could put music in their pianos. The masses got access to piano music. Everybody won.

Today, your garage band can make a recording of you playing 12 Beatles hits and (if each is less than 5 minutes in length) pay $1.02 in compulsory licensing fees to the copyright holder (probably Michael Jackson) for each CD you sell... and you cannot be denied the right to do this by the copyright holder (this is why it's called "compulsory" licensing - it compels the copyright holder to allow anyone who pays the license fee to play his songs).

The problem is that technology is evolving so fast that we don't yet have an analogue to "compulsory licensing" in other areas of copyright. Actual hard copy books are still somewhat tedious to copy, but not impossible... with some practice, you can scan a good-size book in under an hour. And of course, thanks to computers, software, movies, DVDs, CDs, etc. are super-easy to copy.

Some companies (Canada) have a "blank media levy" - similar in concept to a compulsory licensing scheme (you pay when you buy the media, with the assumption that you're going to record copyrighted stuff onto it and in theory the money from the levy goes back to the copyright holders), but not nearly as far-reaching. Of course, this hasn't stopped copyright holders from trying to "double-dip" (e.g., music companies wanting a levy on blank media AND suing for copyright infringement when in theory, the levy is to pay the "cost" incurred by copyright infringement in the frist place).

Until the law manages to "catch up" to the technology - and though I dislike it because of the extra bureaucracy involved and inability to truly track who should REALLY get what share of the pie - a "blank media levy" seems to be about the only solution that looks similar to compulsory licensing.

Honestly, I think it's the only real way of finding a compromise between copyright holders' interests and technology... otherwise copyright holders will legally crush technology into submission (we see some evidence of this as major technology lines up behind copyright holders with things like Intel's embedded DRM and "Secure Monitors" for HD-DVDs and so forth) or technology de facto crushes copyright holders into submission (which I think is ultimately more likely, as all it takes is one manufacturer - or even software writer - who refuses to "play" with the copyright holders and makes available stuff that ignores or bypasses the copyright stuff). I really think there are only three possible outcomes: (1) perpetual copyright enforced by technology and with no public domain to speak of, (2) no copyright at all thanks to the proliferation of technology, or (3) a "compulsory licensing" system the government puts into place to stof the fighting between copyright holders and technology.

Because technology is a many-headed hydra, and "big copyright" is not, I think (1) is not really likely as an outcome. I think (2) holds the problem of cutting off the supply of new content, which is why I hope both sides will see (3) as the solution which can, long term, provide the benefits of technology (which tech wants) without killing the supply of content (which copyright wants). However, given the rat-bastard-greedy levels on both sides, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Prisoner's Dilemma surface and watch both of them fight until one side or the other is destroyed - and either way, Joe Average (all of us) loses, either by emasculation of technology or evaporation of content.

--The Sigil
 

nothing to see here said:
It seems rather popular in internet-lands to pile on to major record labels, financial institutions or any other corporation where the 'suits' stick it to the 'little guy'. To a layman, the role of up-front capital, or access to distribution channels may seem less important than the artistic content of what's being written/preformed.

you are completely right. in fact, the whole napster bubble originated when the labels realised that napster had the potential to win the distribution of music for the new generation of consumers.

besides, it's not just a question of internet-land angast. if you want to learn more about the mechanics of music business, you could do much worse than checking out donald passman's excellent "all you need to know about the music business". the book is a killer!


nothing to see here said:
However the role of the 'suits' is extrememely important. Vital, even.

i agree. the role it's invaluable when there is a real open market, with real competition. the way things stand today, there are 4 or 5 (it was 5, but i think there was a merger at some point... though i might be wrong!) major labels. then you have a number of sub labels that are owned by the majors. then you have independent labels which don't distribute their records themselves, and use the major labels distribution system to do it.
then you get the small minority of truly indepentent labels, which, in near all cases are very small and very local, and care for niche market the major labels couldn't care less for.

you see, IF you manage to get a good contract with a major, and you are lucky enough for the label to believe in you, you have done it. you could only screw up your career if you start putting out real crap. else, with the push a major label gives you, you sell. there's no other way to look at it. that's why most artists choose to abide to this system. there is the (quite fake) belief that if you get lucky (notice that every artist is sure that (s)he's coller and more talented than mozart, elvis, the beatles, beethoven and the spinal tap all rolled together), you win.
sure, you will never see a penny from an album sale, unless you sell like britney spears... but then again, who cares? you are on the magazine covers, and you make deals with sponsors, make moneys with gigs in stadiums, wake up one morning, decide to tell the world that you believe in the flying spaghetti monster and you are in the breaking news...

ehm... i have a feeling i should stop this "music industry insight" stuff... do you find it interesting or relevant or am i just rambling on? :)

nothing to see here said:
The only money an artist loses from producing a dud comes from the time they could have been doing something else -- the record companies are the ones with the real financial stake.
in the ideal world, maybe. in the real music business, it maybe happens 1 time in 100. you check the internet for some horror stories... i'm sure you can find them by the dozen... artists who should be filthy rich filing for bankrupcy because the label srew them up, artists forced to take a producer or a sound because the label said so, artists forced to put out crappy records because christmas time (or the end of the fiscal year) was approaching...

nothing to see here said:
And besides, if the artist has something worth selling, they can always shop around to different labels, and different distribution channels.

i'm afraid it's not so simple. the only band i was aware of that had that bargain power from the start, was pink floyd, because they caused a sensation in 1966 london wit syd barrett. after (and before!) that le diluge. the scenario you are painting is more feasible if you are an affirmed artist... but at that stage, you could as well force your label to accept your conditions, or start your own label to begin with.
 

Numion said:
If the copyright laws were designed to stimulate creativity, stuff would enter public domain much sooner than 75 years after the authors demise. Under the current situation an artist isn't really motivated to create more stuff if he can earn for the rest of his life from single product. If that product gave him earnings for, say, 10 years, he might be more motivated to create more.

Most authors don't make nearly enough from a single work to support them for a lifetime. Or even close. Even with copyright extending to the life of the author + 75 years. That is a red herring of an argument. The laws are designed to stimulate production of intellectual property by making doing so financially lucrative. Sure, you can reach the point where someone has made enough money that they trade off "more work" for "more leisure", but those are generally corner cases. Just because J.K. Rowling could retire tomorrow and never make another book doesn't mean that most authors are in that position. Of course, for her, the tradeoff of "more work" for "more leisure" is quite high, because of her extreme money-making potential, so it costs her a lot to rest on her laurels, meaning even she is given more incentive to create more stuff by the nature of copyright law.

(Also, people frequently want more money than they can spend in a lifetime, they value their kids well-being and want to provide for them).
 


Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top