Pirating RPGs. (And were not talking "arggg" pirate stuff here.)

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In order to keep this thread open I've deleted three posts which were focussing on political issues outside copyright law and related stuff (e.g. my government did this/that government did that).

I hope that everyone is on the same page here. Talking about copyright law on forums with people from dozens of countries will naturally raise examples of how different countries handle issues, and that is to be expected, that is fine.

Drawing analogies from other aspects of international laws and the people who form them is less likely to be fine. If you think that a particular post might be sailing a little too close to the wind please thing of a way to rephrase your point.

Thanks
 

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A Proposal

jgbrowning, I have purchased one of your products (at least I think it's yours), and I really liked it: A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. It's a damn good book.

philreed, I have never purchased any of your products, but the word on these boards is that you do good work.

Would either of you (or any other recognized, accomplished publisher that posts on EN World) be willing to publish a "free for the taking" product if you could collect a fee for it up front?

If yes, how much would you want for say a good, longish adventure set in a generic fantasy world for DnD 3.5 using open content only?

I would love to see one (or more) of you try it. Make a post on EN World requesting total donations of $XX.XX (whatever it takes to get you to do it), and see if we can get a "free" work out of you.

Better yet, how about one of your already completed works? How much would you need to collect to make one of your completed, already published works freely available?

Would anyone be willing to try this? The worst that can happen is you don't get enough "donations/patronage" and so you don't release the work. The best thing that can happen is you realize that you can publish works this way . . . you can make a living and not worry about copyright or sales or anything of the sort. You collect your money up front, publish your work, and start working on the next one. You could even include PayPal payment instructions in the work for people to pay you after the work is published if they felt so inclined.

I personally spend several hundred dollars per year on books. There are others that spend thousands. We could all spend significantly less, and get more books this way, AND the artists/authors could continue to collect a decent living. You might find you could make a better living if you don't have to share your income with publishers, distributors, etc.

Example: how much does Paizo pay for the adventures in their magazine? I'm sure it's not more than a few hundred dollars. Do you not think that you could collect many more hundreds of dollars (maybe a thousand dollars or more?) for a single, good work that takes a week (or less) to write? I bet we could find a thousand people willing to pay $1.00 each to get the adventure published in a "free for the taking" format.

Eh, maybe I'm wrong, but if I was a writer I would sure as hell give it a shot.
 

Brent_Nall said:
jgbrowning, I have purchased one of your products (at least I think it's yours), and I really liked it: A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe. It's a damn good book.

philreed, I have never purchased any of your products, but the word on these boards is that you do good work.

Would either of you (or any other recognized, accomplished publisher that posts on EN World) be willing to publish a "free for the taking" product if you could collect a fee for it up front?

I have notes for a project I want to attempt using the ransom model. I just need to finalize the concept and figure out how to announce it. But that's basically what you're describing -- get paid in advance to create and release a free PDF.
 

nothing to see here said:
It's certainly a colorful metaphor. I'm not sure how apt it is.

It was the first metaphor that sprung to mind, and it seems *surprisingly* apt. If it's the art we want, why at the moment is 80%-ish of the money we plunk down on a copy of the art going to the copers, and only a small fraction going to the artists? The money isn't (largely) going to the artists, it isn't going to the individuals whose services we want. It's going to the individuals who organize and secure those services. This seems entirely backwards. I shouldn't be supporting an *industry* when I buy a CD -- I should be supporting the creator.

Does P2P filesharing challenge this model. Yes it does. Does it mitigate some of the more unjust feature of this model. Yes it does. Does P2P filesharing, in so doing, risk elminating the ability for the artist to make a living through their art altogether. Yes it does.

IMHO, these are all good things. Ug not standing to make a million Dino-Dollars from the buffallo he painted on the wall didn't stop him from doing it. There, ideally, should be a monetary incentive to produce art. But that incentive should come from the community, from the public, from the people who will recieve and interpret the art. Not from guys in suits who copy it. And I don't think that the incentive should be enough to be able to "live off of art." It should absolutely be something you want to do for it's own sake, not because you will survive off of it. Kinda like the RPG market right now...which is that way specifically because one major company gave up a large percentage of its product for free reproduction. :)

jgbrowning said:
I've never heard Drowing Pool. Why? Because I listen to radio on the internet to hear what I want to hear. Or I guess I could listen to one of the what, 500 channels on satilite radio. Sorry, Copyright isn't limiting creativity. It's making creativity econically viable in ways it had never been before because of the development of new media outlets (the internet).

Free music doesn't sound like it's copyright to me. It sounds specifically as if it is an exception to the copyright rules: you can take this product and distribute it for free over the airwaves. You don't have to pay to release it. Or if you do pay, you pay not by charging the listener, but by charging advertisors (which is also a huge part of this New Economy anyway).

Internet and satelite allow for musical options, but they are still forced into pigeonholes based on what the suits dictate as genres, because genres are easier to market than bands. You have the "classical" station, the "top 40" station, the "blues" station, the "oldies" station, the "rock" station, the "country" station, the "electronic" station, etc. These are all artificial categories; these categories do stymie creativity. Because if what I release as new music is not easily fit into one of these categories, it is rejected, and the reason is because of the suits. Because the way for their business of copying things to make money is to copy something that people will want a lot of copies of, and if it doesn't fit into a genre, if it breaks new ground, if it doesn't fit into an old pattern, the numbers say it is a gamble at best, and you don't run a business on gambles.

But the most significant and profound art is *always* a gamble. That doesn't mesh well at all with a business model.

Because of Copyright I have legal recourse to protect myself and secure my welfare. Without copyright I would have no legal recourse.

I've never myself made the claim that copyright is worthless evil grumble grumble, though I have pointed out why others think so (namely, that saying only certain people have the right to copy something is like saying only certain people have the right to have children). In fact, I said that I think the idea of copyright is probably a good way to encourage artists (I think that limited, temporary, creator-owned, and nonstransferrable copyright is a pretty solid way to do this). That doesn't mean that it's the only way. And it obviously isn't the right way anymore, with all that it has done to hurt those it was meant to protect. Perhaps the modern way of doing it is a perversion of the intentions of the old system, but it's important to address the issues as they exist today, rather than defend what exists today because it once had a good reason somewhere in the deep past.
 

Falkus said:
You don't get it, do you? The vast majority of consumers think that the evil big industry is making good stuff, because they keep buying it. You're in a minority, the exception, not the rule.

The original context of this was that someone claimed that we depend on the big, nasty entertainment industry to provide us with our stuff, and so it is hypocritical to be so down on them for being big and nasty. I claim that 1: they don't have to be so nasty, and 2: that I don't depend on them for my stuff, because I get it from somewhere else. Therefore, it doesn't matter what the vast majority is doing because they could be getting better stuff than they are from someone who's in it for the quality and not only for the profit margin.

And, oh god...I can't believe you used the words "you don't get it, do you?". I'm going to be laughing about that for days.
 

I bet we could find a thousand people willing to pay $1.00 each to get the adventure published in a "free for the taking" format.

Well, for what the word of a "not yet ready for prime-time" game designer is, you can bet that when I decide to start charging people for my work, I will be making an effort to use these new methods.

One can't realy make a living writing for RPG's as it is, so why not gamble for a good cause? :D
 

philreed said:
Yep. A free PDF I put up about a week ago has had about 150 downloads. A for sale PDF put up around the same time has sold 10 copies.

I really think a lot of the people downloading the free stuff don't even read it -- they collect PDFs.

Hell, Phil, I've bought stuff of yours that I haven't read. ;)
 

The games industry is not the music industry, folks. The .pdf end of the hobby is even less so.

Lets say that a successful CD gets X sales. To get a rough (but by no means accurate) idea of how many sales a successful book gets, dvide that by 10. To get an idea of how much a similarly successful RPG book gets, dvide *that* by 10. To get an idea of how much a successful .pdf book gets, divide *that* by 10.

This is just a mental exercise. The exact numbers aren't important.

Now, imagine the relative impact of losing the sale of 1 CD to piracy versus 1 RPG book.

That's why it's different. Losing the sale of an e-book isn't a drop in the bucket. For what might be Copper ranked products at RPGNow, it might be as much as losing 1-2% of the potential income of the product. That's per copy.

The scale is so different that analogies from other media are pretty dumb.
 

nothing to see here said:
I wonder, in your hypothetical scenario what would happen if the big boys dissapeared. The most agressive (ruthless) small businesses would start eating up the more 'honourable' small businesses, and the cycle would repeat anew. On the plus side, success brings resources, and while resources cannot guarantee quality on a case by case basis, it does tend to provide progress, however glacially.

One person's "slezy, unethical, moneygrubbing" behaviour is another person's "competitive" behaviour. High stakes and intense competition does not have a common byproduct of improving ethical standards. It sucks, but, it's life...and I've yet to hear a better market model than the competitive one.

One word: antitrust
 

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