Pit Fighter Balance

[UngeheuerLich]

Fighters built for damage do a lot of it... but: they are not so very mobile...

The bard however should never underperform... even if you don´t heal more than 1 or 2 points of damage, the free shift can be very handy. sliding enemies and shifting friends is what a bard can really do well. So the bard should be able to make the day very bad for enemies by bringing them close to the fighter...

 

[Danceofmasks]

That's why I said "fighter talent" not "weapon talent".

:O

Is that terminology from hybrids?

 

[Mengu]

:O

Is that terminology from hybrids?

That, and compendium lists them as fighter talents.

 

[Tuft]

Fighters built for damage do a lot of it... but: they are not so very mobile...

The bard however should never underperform... even if you don´t heal more than 1 or 2 points of damage, the free shift can be very handy. sliding enemies and shifting friends is what a bard can really do well. So the bard should be able to make the day very bad for enemies by bringing them close to the fighter...

The fighter has no problem gathering up enemies, thanks to "come and Get it", a tendency of monsters to rush into melee with anyone that marks them, and being rather good at shifting by himself (not to mention having enough AC to withstand OAs if he moves without shifting), so that he can simply move to those that don't come to him.

The swordsmage can teleport 10(?) squares multiple times/encounter, so she can pretty much place herself as she wants on the battlefield. She can also use her marks to gather up the monsters for her; Both defenders pretty much has everything on the battlefield marked up by round two onwards.

The rogue can pretty much move about the battlefield at will due to a number of powers with shift components, and is seldom in any danger from being hit, due to the monsters concentrating on those marking them, and a *very* good stealth skill.

The defenders usually decline to receive Majestic Word, as Second Wind and various item-based healing surges apparently are more advantageous.

 

[Tuft]

Asking because I have a fighter outdamaging the rest in a party. There are other problems in the party as well, but the damage imbalance is the worst. This is a typical damage breakdown for a fight:

40% Human Fighter/Guardian/Pit Fighter
30% Human Rogue/Artful Dodger/Daggermaster (throw and hide)
20% Eladrin Swordmage/Warding/Wandering Swordmage
10% Satyr Bard/Graceful Bard/Shapedancer

We took statistics for a number of combats at appx level 18, so these are the actual numbers of damage dealt and received:

Combat 1
Bard: Dealt 88 (7%), Received 0 (0%)
Fighter: Dealt 568 (46%), Received 115 (45%)
Rogue: Dealt 348 (28%), Received 79 (31%)
Swordmage: Dealt 239 (19%), Received 62 (24%)

Combat 2
Bard: Dealt 180 (15%), Received 19 (10%)
Fighter: Dealt 519 (42%), Received 23 (13%)
Rogue: Dealt 335 (27%), Received 30 (16%)
Swordmage: Dealt 119 (16%), Received 111 (61%)

Combat 3
Bard: Dealt 358 (11%), Received 96 (18%)
Fighter: Dealt 1465 (43%), Received 285 (55%)
Rogue: Dealt 682 (20%), Received 50 (10%)
Swordmage: Dealt 874 (26%), Received 88 (17%)

Combat 4 (single Solo)
Bard: Dealt 99 (11%), Received 0 (0%)
Fighter: Dealt 341 (39%), received 64 (100%)
Rogue: Dealt 430 (49%), Received 0 (0%)

Combat 5
Bard: Dealt 129 (11%), Received 27 (12%)
Fighter: Dealt 433 (38%), Received 113 (48%)
Rogue: Dealt 402 (35%), Received 26 (11%)
Swordmage: Dealt 179 (16%), Received 68 (29%)

The Swordmage has respecced and improved her defense since.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, maybe the bard needs other areas to shine in this particular party^^

Still I believe the right power choice and the right multiclass feat will allow the bard to shine in other areas...

His at will looks particular nice to help the rogue deal his damage. If he has the At will which lowers defense he can help the fighter hitting. So you should put all damage which is done by the fighter because of bards on the bards account and suddenly he will do damage.

In one 3.x group I had a bard with really sub par stats who used song of courage and other buffs so that the archer hit 20% more and also did a lot of damage... and often enough this was the bonus which allowed to hit... so this damage was fully accounted to the bard.

 

[Mengu]

How are you calculating the bard's damage? Does he get credit for the bonus damage and bonus attacks? When he provokes an opportunity attack from the fighter's mark, giving the fighter an attack, does that get credited to the fighter or the Bard? Half and half? If the rogue flanks with the bard, who gets credit for the sneak attack damage?

Who gets credit when the bard removes a blinded condition from a rogue, or dazed condition from the swordmage, allowing them to be effective?

I'm guessing the fighter and swordmage damages are high because of multi-target attacks. Come and Get it, Scattering Swing, Vorpal Tornado can wrack up the total damage rather quickly. Sword burst, Thundering Vortex, etc. do the same for swordmage. If the rogue simply contributes to taking targets down sooner rather than later, even without a lot of overall damage output, she should be effective.

The party doesn't seem to be taking a lot of damage overall, so I'm wondering if the encounters are a bit too straight forward. In my game, in an encounter, it's not unusual for the sorcerer to take enough damage to make her keel over twice (she doesn't of course because of mitigation or healing). Sometimes the ranger will be the punching bag, and sometimes the warlock or the shaman. And on the odd occasion I have taken a paladin down in round 1, or a fighter to single digits in round 2. Of course a lot of monsters promptly die after that, but still, the only encounter where the party has taken a reasonable amount of damage seems to be combat 3.

 

[Starfox]

Encounters are in the +1 to +3 range; I am starting to realize I need to up things a bit. But with 2 defenders on the team, fights are pretty slow already, clocking at 7-10 rounds. I might just give the monsters a +2 on all attack rolls instead to spice things up. Its a bit hard to say if encounters are a too straight forward; we are running the Rise of the Runelords AP, and I try to convert several 3E fights into one larger and more interesting 4E fight, often with monsters coming from different directions at once. Usually, I set up alarm chains and bunch encounters together that way; what would be 3 rooms, 3 fights in 3E becomes 3 rooms, 1 fight in 4E. This means there are usually quite a number of monsters of the PCs level or lower, but we have occasional higher-level critters too. Adventuring days tend to be 5 encounters, 3-4 of which are fights.

And no, we've not included anything but the bard's own damage. If she ever tiriggered an OA from the fighter, we would have counted that to her credit. A damage distribution of 30-30-30-10 would be ok; the rogue can shine by putting her damage where it matters most. 10% damage for the bard is actually ok if she was felt to contribute fully in other ways. The problem is, the player (Tuft) feels her buffs donöt matter and her healing isn't needed.

About the multiattack tricks for the rogue, I agree more attacks => more damage. I'll direct the rogue player to this thread for tips. The fighter is better at doing this and this is part of the reason he shines. Still, I think it mainly boils down to the power of the Pit Fighter paragon path, hence the original question.

Rogue:
I find daggermasters crit-fish much better if they make more attack rolls.
My daggermaster build is a drow (cloud of darkness = 2 turns of free CA), and tries to get as many attack rolls as possible (cloud of steel, blinding barrage, low slash, burst fire, etc), and use sneak attack on the crits (to max 'em).
Since with first strike and flanking the rogue can usually get CA, subtle dagger ftw.

 

[keterys]

Would the fighter actually deal less damage if he were a Kensei instead? Probably a trade of +9 damage for AP rounds for +1 attack all the time.

The pit fighter is an extremely good paragon path, it is true. I'm guessing he's getting +4 or so to damage, and +9 when he APs, which he uses for come and get it and some other close burst power afterwards. Is he using a two-handed weapon or one-handed?

A daggermaster rogue should be able to output better damage on the non-AP fights at a minimum, and we're just not seeing that above. Is the rogue just not getting combat advantage that often? Or never rolling above a 17?

 

[Orcus Porkus]

It is what it is. Pit Fighter is a striker paragon path accidentally assigned to a defender class. No wonder it's a favorite for barbarians.
Just look at the level 20 daily. Since when do defenders want enemies to run away from them? It totally contradicts everything else the fighter class has to offer.
And now, even after 2 books featuring the barbarian, and some dragon articles, it's still Kensei, Pit Fighter, Iron Vanguard for most barbarians.