Planar Binding, Celestials, and good casters

[Elder-Basilisk]

Planar Ally is a request to the deity and the deity chooses which minion to send (a specific minion may be requested but will not necessarily be granted). A Neutral evil cleric of Vecna could conceivably ask for a Balor and get a Pit Fiend instead. (As Vecna could potentially have both CE and LE servants). Similarly, a NG cleric of Pelor could ask for a Trumpet Archon and get a Ghaele Eladrin.

With the Planar Binding spells, a specific entity is specified. Not only can one specify Archon, one can specify Zhuel, bodyguard of the Ahma.

Consequently, the implication is that the ally summoned by the planar ally spells is not taken from the midst of something more important. If there were something more important for the celestial to be doing, the deity would pick a different celestial to send. The Planar Binding spells, on the other hand, could be used to remove a potent celestial from the midst of a crucial planar battle for instance. Or they could inadvertently have that effect.

If its a wizard or sorcerer who follows the same deity or even is the same alignment, whats the difference? [/B]

 

[Cheiromancer]

If you call or summon an archon, the spell is lawful and good. The act of casting such a spell, even if done for trivial or selfish reasons, is therefore lawful and good.

Lawful good casters should have no qualms about summoning archons. Even if it inconveniences or irritates the archon, the net effect is to increase the amount of lawfulness and goodness in the universe.

 

[Lela]

If you call or summon an archon, the spell is lawful and good. The act of casting such a spell, even if done for trivial or selfish reasons, is therefore lawful and good.

Lawful good casters should have no qualms about summoning archons. Even if it inconveniences or irritates the archon, the net effect is to increase the amount of lawfulness and goodness in the universe.

Well, IMC those spells would use Lawful and Good forces but the net effect wouldn't necissarrally be Lawful and Good. I'm not saying the ends justify the means, just that ends count for something too.

 

[Tzarevitch]

If you call or summon an archon, the spell is lawful and good. The act of casting such a spell, even if done for trivial or selfish reasons, is therefore lawful and good.

Lawful good casters should have no qualms about summoning archons. Even if it inconveniences or irritates the archon, the net effect is to increase the amount of lawfulness and goodness in the universe.

So if I summon a max HD trumpet archon to clean my toilets that increases the amount of lawfulness and goodness in the universe?

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

QUOTE]Also Planar Binding is not a pleasant way to be called. Fundamentally you trying to get someone's help by catching him in a magical trap that teleports him to you. That is not likely to earn you the celestial's friendship off the back.

Well see this is exactly my question. the spell doesnt create the trap...you can cast it without that. So I dont see why a good caster calling a celestial would need to do the trap for that purpose







If its a wizard or sorcerer who follows the same deity or even is the same alignment, whats the difference? [/QUOTE]


Actually, the warding circle is the prison. That part is optional. The trap is the fact that the spell snares its target whether willing or not and deposits the target in front of you.


The wizard's alignment is not as relevant as whether or not the wizard/sorcerer is a follower of the deity. Not everyone with the same alignment shares the same goals. And just because he is a follower of the same deity doesn't mean that he has the authority to call one of the deity's celestial minions. If he did have such authority he would be able to cast the Planar Ally spells.

Fundamentally, the Planar Binding spells are tantamount to driving up to someone in a car, sacking him and driving him back to your place to kindly apologize and ask him for help.

You might have a good reason for doing it but it will not likely earn the friendship of the being that is sumoned. Depending on the being it may still help you if the reason is good enough.

Tzarevitch

 

[Merlion]

We have different definitions of "trap". To me the planar binding spells simply summon the creature. if you dont set the trap part, it can then do whatever it wants.
And, like I said I guess we see celestials very differently. On a general basis I dont see them as ever being hostile towards a good being accept in extreme circumstances. They've been being summoned by people for ages...it could even be said that this is part of their purpose. and the whole business of being summoned away from an important tast as I've said is all in the hands of the DM. It seems to me that their are probably large numbers of celestials and that indeed some probably do regularly make themselves avaible for being called to the material plane.
But anyway I guess the answer to my question is that it depends entirly on the campaign and the DM. and aparently most of you guys are of the opnion that summoning a celestial should be done in the same way and have the same risks for a good caster as calling a demon which to me is just very strange..

 

[ruleslawyer]

I also think that making celestial summoning tantamount to fiend summoning in terms of risk is a bad idea from the incentive perspective. Good casters should have more of a reason to summon celestials than fiends. Under the logic stated by some of the above posters, a good caster always would be furthering the cause of good by summoning evil rather than good outsiders, since:

1) You're tearing the evil outsider away from what it's doing, which was probably something naughty;

2) You're bending an evil being to your will rather than subverting a good being's free will (a less evil act at the least); and

3) Most importantly, you're putting the life of an evil being at risk rather than that of a good being; again, a less evil act, presumably.

I don't like where such a situation leads, and I'd rather encourage good casters to summon good celestials than to play amateur demonologist. Thus, my assumption is that the planar binding spells, when used to summon good outsiders, work in a relatively congenial manner. Typically, the celestial and caster communicate briefly, and if the celestial tells the caster that it's busy and can't be disturbed at the moment, I make it incumbent upon the caster to release the celestial upon penalty of committing an evil act. Otherwise, the caster can call the celestial to his plane and bargain for a service without fear of being turned on... as long as the caster's interests are somewhat aligned with those of the celestial. Obviously, an evil caster trying the same thing is in a far different situation.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Let my just clarify the points I was trying to make.

I am not saying in any way that is is better for good casters to summon evil beings, I am saying that yanking a creature across the planes to your doorstep is not something that that creature is going to be kindly disposed to regardless of whether it is a fiend or celestial. Functionally, it is tantamount to dropping a bag over someone's head, taking him to your house, then asking him to do something for you. It is not the same as a priest summoning a Planar Ally which is presumably already kindly disposed to you or your cause and at least passingly familiar with who you are.

I am also not in any way implying that there is never a reason for a good caster to snare a heavenly being for help. I am just saying that very likely that the summonee whatever the alignments of the summoner and the summonee will not be very happy that he has been yanked out of whatever he is doing. If the summoner and the summonee are both good and rational beings, the summoner may be able to convince the summonee that he had a good reason and genuinely needs help. The summonee may then decide that he WILL help, but there is no reason that it will be happy at what you have done even if it is willing to help. Some celestial beings are like the Old Testament angels in that they are agents of a deity's wrath, and woe be even a good caster who summons one of those for what it considers insufficient reasons.

What I am ultimately trying to say is that Planar Binding is not a pleasant experience for the summonee because it functionally kidnaps it even if you don't use the binding circle. Just because the being is a celestial and is "good" and you are "good" doesn't mean that your goals are it's goals (especially in the case of an arcane caster who is not a direct minion of a higher power or force that it may also serve) or that it will be happy to be yanked from what it was doing to help you with what you are doing. Note the spell does NOT give the subject any option to refuse other than to make its save and or SR. That is not to say that Planar Binding is "evil", but it certainly isn't nice and it doesn't engender feelings of trust from the summonee regardless of alignment.

The way I compensate for this in my campaigns is that wizards who are DIRECTLY in the sworn service to a deity (and have say the arcane devotee prestige class or something else to that effect) may use the Planar Ally spells. That way they can call one of their deity's minions for help if they are in reasonable need.

Tzarevitch

 

[Merlion]

No where in the Monster Manual does it even say that all celestials serve deities
I understand your points. my point is seeing how the celestial is bright enough to understand that the mage really has no other way to request their services they are by no means going to be automaticaly unhappy with them for summoning them via a Planar Binding.
Better yet, I think their should be a clause in the spell simliar to what ruleslawyer mentions...an option to give a creature of simliar alignment a heads up before you pull them into your dimension. Because the way it is set up now makes no sense to me.
Of course for the campaign I'm going to run many of thease points are moot as their are no clerics or Planar Ally spells, and only one real deity....and Celestials goals are the goals of goodness plain and simple. But I still wouldnt suggest summoning a Hound Archon to mow the law or something

 

[ruleslawyer]

Let my just clarify the points I was trying to make...

Tzarevitch: I understood what you were saying. I was just pointing out that an interpretation like yours, regardless of its reasonableness (and it is eminently reasonable), does at least potentially lead to the conclusion that it is better even for a good caster to summon a fiend than a celestial. Thus, I use the alteration to the LPB/PB/GPB spells that I mentioned.