D&D 5E Planar Binding

[CapnZapp]

I still don't understand why you're taking a round off between spells. Instead of waiting six seconds to start casting the new spell, just start casting Planar Binding immediately.

I'm certainly not defending the "one round too short of an entire hour" argument, but I need to say you can't do this.

If you cast a spell, that's what you do that round.

You do have to wait six seconds to begin casting a new spell. You only get one Cast action per round.

If you agree I can start casting Planar Binding right after casting Fireball, I'd like to start casting Fireball right after casting Fireball instead. A neverending stream of fireballs, whohoo!

Again, this is almost completely irrelevant to the case at hand. (Or any case ) But still.

 

[CapnZapp]

On topic, I fail to understand why some of you people have such trouble acknowledging that the PHB is lacking a tool in the toolbox D&D has always had before.

Why is it so hard to simply admit that for a Planar Binding to be truly useful you need to have spells that supply the outsiders for it to bind?

I mean, this is not rocket science. Just look at how d20 did it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm

Errata a summoning capability right into the 5E spell and there's no longer any need to have an argument.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Some of us see Conjure Elemental and Gate as perfectly adequate for supplying elementals and eventually demons to bind.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

On topic, I fail to understand why some of you people have such trouble acknowledging that the PHB is lacking a tool in the toolbox D&D has always had before.

Why is it so hard to simply admit that for a Planar Binding to be truly useful you need to have spells that supply the outsiders for it to bind?

I mean, this is not rocket science. Just look at how d20 did it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm

Errata a summoning capability right into the 5E spell and there's no longer any need to have an argument.

It isn't going to happen (except in your homebrew). This wasn't an accident or an oversight. It is no different than why so many buff spells are concentration: there are combinations they don't intend to be as easy to get in 5e as it was in previous editions. This is one of them. Is it a lot of extra work to get some extra hours out of conjure elemental/conjure vrock/etc.? Yes, and that is intentional.

 

[CapnZapp]

It isn't going to happen (except in your homebrew). This wasn't an accident or an oversight. It is no different than why so many buff spells are concentration: there are combinations they don't intend to be as easy to get in 5e as it was in previous editions. This is one of them. Is it a lot of extra work to get some extra hours out of conjure elemental/conjure vrock/etc.? Yes, and that is intentional.

You make it out to be such a deliberate intentional measure in your attempts to let the designers off the hook, but you can't hide the fact the spell no longer can be used without DM/story intervention.

The big question is: if you have DM/story support, why do you need a spell?

I mean, there's nothing wrong with scripted rituals that do stuff no spell can do. But that's not what a spell is for. The purpose of this spell was for a player to summon and bind his own outsider independently of what the DM or story has in mind. It's one thing to make a thing "not as easy" as previously. It's another to completely gut the agency of the caster.

And yet, gutting that agency is fine. But why then keep this anatomical appendix of an earlier era?

If you can't agree to re-enabling the spell's utility, at least remove it entirely...

 

[Saeviomagy]

You make it out to be such a deliberate intentional measure in your attempts to let the designers off the hook, but you can't hide the fact the spell no longer can be used without DM/story intervention.

The big question is: if you have DM/story support, why do you need a spell?

I mean, there's nothing wrong with scripted rituals that do stuff no spell can do. But that's not what a spell is for. The purpose of this spell was for a player to summon and bind his own outsider independently of what the DM or story has in mind. It's one thing to make a thing "not as easy" as previously. It's another to completely gut the agency of the caster.

And yet, gutting that agency is fine. But why then keep this anatomical appendix of an earlier era?

If you can't agree to re-enabling the spell's utility, at least remove it entirely...

I agree that this looks like it was a set of interleaved design decisions that left a spell in the lurch... but the spell is still usable, just more involved than "I cast it, it works".

As a DM, I even appreciate the breathing room that the spell gives me, as opposed to "now I summon an X from page YYY mid-combat!"

But it is one of those system-mastery things that they were supposedly trying to avoid.

 

[gyor]

You know with Plane Shift you can you can go fetch a demon instead of the demon coming to you. Go to the Abyss and find the demon you want, Planar Bind it.

The really funny thing is in normal practice Planar Binding is almost just a metamagic enhancement for conjure spells.

Still for long term usage Planar Ally is still more useful, odds are what ever you summon with it will be interested in striking a deal for service, because you ask for a Ally from a Cosmic being and why would it pick someone uninterested in making a deal, its only restraint time wise is what your willing to pay.

The really weird thing is Paladins who get Planar Binding, but don't get any summoning spells aside from summon steed, which doesn't have a time limit or require concentration (which in practice is why its one of the best summoning spells).

Sorcerors can do some interesting things with Planar Binding, like casting it on two beings at once, or casting it silently, so the target doesn't even know your casting it on them, cast it from hiding.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

You make it out to be such a deliberate intentional measure in your attempts to let the designers off the hook, but you can't hide the fact the spell no longer can be used without DM/story intervention.

The big question is: if you have DM/story support, why do you need a spell?

I mean, there's nothing wrong with scripted rituals that do stuff no spell can do. But that's not what a spell is for. The purpose of this spell was for a player to summon and bind his own outsider independently of what the DM or story has in mind. It's one thing to make a thing "not as easy" as previously. It's another to completely gut the agency of the caster.

And yet, gutting that agency is fine. But why then keep this anatomical appendix of an earlier era?

If you can't agree to re-enabling the spell's utility, at least remove it entirely...

It is 5e, and story is king. It is one of the fundamental assumptions of the edition, and they have said so over and over again. I am sorry that you don't like it, but there hasn't been even a hint that it is going to change. If it makes you feel better, blame Hasbro, because a rules light (story driven) approach is almost certainly more cost effective over time (unless you can reuse just about everything with a new coat of paint like 4e), so at least part of the decision is probably corporate.

Back to binding: you make it sound like the wizard never goes anywhere or does anything but summon a demon, give it a mission, and hang around his parent's basement playing Call of Duty and eating pizza until the demon comes back, so the wizard is never going to attack anything, so why have Fireball in the PHB? And since the wizard will never take damage, obviously we don't need any cure or buff spells, not to mention fighters, clerics, sorcerers, or any other class, because, you know, the demon will take care of everything.

A wizard who actually goes into the dungeon will have a reasonable chance to use this spell as written. Every AP since horde of the dragon queen has had at least one critter who could be affected by this spell in it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You know with Plane Shift you can you can go fetch a demon instead of the demon coming to you. Go to the Abyss and find the demon you want, Planar Bind it.

What could possibly go wrong?

P.S. Paladins do not in fact get Planar Binding on their spell list. It's only cleric/bard/druid/wizard.

 

[CapnZapp]

It is 5e, and story is king. It is one of the fundamental assumptions of the edition, and they have said so over and over again. I am sorry that you don't like it, but there hasn't been even a hint that it is going to change. If it makes you feel better, blame Hasbro, because a rules light (story driven) approach is almost certainly more cost effective over time (unless you can reuse just about everything with a new coat of paint like 4e), so at least part of the decision is probably corporate.

You are not listening Mecha - I don't have a problem with story.

But if you rely on story, why the spell?

Edit: Deleted.