Planejammer / Spellscape

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
So I've been thinking about this idea of combining spelljammer and planescape and it bothered me. I knew that a big aspect was that the "flavors", the tone if you will, didn't seen to match. But there was something else, and I think I just figured it out.

It's the, ah, logistics. Sigil is the city of doors, there there are an unknown of hidden portals, that require the right key to go through. So you can spend a lot of time, money, effort, quests etc to find one of these portals to go somewhere... or take a spelljamming ship? Having spelljamming ships seems to bypass this mechanism
 

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gyor

Legend
So I've been thinking about this idea of combining spelljammer and planescape and it bothered me. I knew that a big aspect was that the "flavors", the tone if you will, didn't seen to match. But there was something else, and I think I just figured it out.

It's the, ah, logistics. Sigil is the city of doors, there there are an unknown of hidden portals, that require the right key to go through. So you can spend a lot of time, money, effort, quests etc to find one of these portals to go somewhere... or take a spelljamming ship? Having spelljamming ships seems to bypass this mechanism

So do spells like Planeshift.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
So do spells like Planeshift.

Well yes (... I think. I don't remember if there was a special rule for that). But didn't planeshift require a special fork? And it's not a low level spell! But what level do you have to be to book passage on a ship?
 

TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
Give us Sigil, the City of Brass and detail a major city in the Abyss.

Drop phlogiston and replace it with sailing the Astral Sea.

Give us reasons to Spelljam. Trading routes, products that are traded across the planes, etc....

Spelljamming subclasses.

This is a very good list. You'd need to add one or two Space-cities, like the Rock of Bral, as well. Maybe an Astral Sea piratical port-o-call run by less-murderous-than-average Githyanki.
Do you hate it or love it when you have a strong opinion on a new thread and other people have already said what you were going to say--better than you could have said it?

I can relate. B-)
 

Interesting! Feasible?

1. Don't need this, wouldn't work with my cosmos, nor likely work with many homebrews, and take to much effort on WotC part to be worth it.

In regard to an actual map of the D&D Multiverse "not working with your cosmos, nor with many homebrews"...the same could be said for a map of any land, continent, or world...whether it be Faerun, Toril, Oerth, or anything. Any DM who's worked with those worlds will have developed divergent stories and lands. That shouldn't stop WotC from trying to gather all existing published info about those lands and worlds, or stop them from publishing a complete map of Faerun, Toril, or Oerth for 5E. The same applies to the D&D Multiverse.

But if you're assuming that I'm talking about shoehorning it all into the Great Wheel (instead of depicting world-specific cosmologies, such as the Great Tree and Eberron Orrery), that's not necessarily the case. I see though that for 5E (so far) WotC has decided to depict the Multiversal map as a mix between the Great Wheel and World Axis, and I assume that will continue to be the case in any 5E Planejammer setting, with the World Tree and Orrey (and other world-specific cosmologies) being explained as just another way to map the connections between planes and planar dominions. But I say that in order to be a complete map, the usual 5E planar map, would also need to include inset maps or supplementary maps (on another page) which show how each of the major world views the planar map: Toril's World Tree, Eberron's Orrery, Mystara's Five Spheres, etc.

As for such a "planejammer" map taking a long time to figure out...much of the work has already been done. Paul Westermeyer has gathered all official references to Spelljammer routes, and has mapped them out in "An 'Official' Guide to the Spheres" - the map is on page 6. So just take Westermeyer's map, and merge it with a more detailed version of the 5E Planes of Existence map, add in all of the obscure worlds and planes, have an artist beautifully render it, and voila!

2. See #1

As for a full planetary map for each of the major worlds, I've gathered a bunch of them in my Atlas of the D&D Multiverse. Many of the worlds have full planetary maps, at least with bare continental outlines: Oerth, Abeir-Toril, Krynn, Eberron, Mystara. For the other worlds, I'd advise WotC to not worry too much about areas of a globe which haven't been depicted at all. Just show the existing mapped areas as more detailed, and sketch in some continents on the rest of the globe and call it done.

3. Interesting idea, could include rules but as for the rest see #1.

Much of the work of correlating timelines has already been done.

Temporal Chronology of the Primes: https://web.archive.org/web/20110711...chronology.htm
Spelljammer Timeline: http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/hi..._timeline.html
Unified Multiversal Timeline: http://planejammerchronicles.com/about-2/
Timaresh's Timeline: http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Timeline
Timeline Converter: https://web.archive.org/web/20040720...nd/chrono.html
Also relevant is TSR's "Chronomancy and the Multiverse" (RTF download) which notionally includes (though without dates) many worlds within the D&D Multiverse, including such obscure worlds as Historical Reference Campaign & Masque of the Red Death (D&D Earth), Gamma World, and Council of Wyrms.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?358019-Grand-History-of-the-Multiverse#ixzz3AxZFuIWd
FR recent events (5E adventures): http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19630

Mystara is one key world which hasn't been clearly synchronized with the other timelines.

Here are the known crossovers between Mystara and the other worlds: http://pandius.com/mystchar.html
(I'd add to this list the world-gates which were mentioned in the AD&D conversion guide in the back of some of the Gazetteers and connect Mystara with Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. And also the world-gates from the Book of Marvelous Magic, which connect Mystara to Greyhawk, Dawn Patrol, Boot Hill, Gangbusters, and other early settings.)
Here's one enthusiast's attempt: http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewt...133501#p133501
And discussion of details here: http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3223
The discussion includes future events, such as correlations with the Greyhawk 2000 "D&D Modern" setting.
For reference, here's the existing Mystara timeline: http://pandius.com/timeline.html

A discussion of whether all the worlds advanced 100+ years for 4E and 5E. Includes info about Elsir Vale from 3E Red Hand of Doom which exists in 4E Nerath: http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15942

4. See #1.

As for "game edition" Realities, I'm the only one (that I know of) in all of D&D fandom who has really worked on that concept. It's a forgotten but useful tool for wrapping my mind around the different rules-based depictions of the same world. WotC is welcome to use my research:

https://sites.google.com/site/dndphilmont/d-d-realities
https://sites.google.com/site/dndphilmont/realities-and-worlds-chart
https://sites.google.com/site/dndphilmont/continuities

5. See #1, besides, I prefer to decide whats connecting or not.

Even if WotC connected it all, of course, anyone can decide what's connected in their campaign. There's no question about that.

As for including an official mention of the wider Hasbro "Megaverse", I'm proposing only a brief paragraph. And I'd keep the non-D&D IPs as distinct "multiverses", which only lightly and rarely (and optionally) connect to the D&D Multiverse. But c'mon, it'd be cool to have a D&D/Transformers crossover. And...as others have said, it is likely that there will be more M:tG D&D products...presumably M:tG may soon have in-world connections with D&D. I'm offering a deft way of connecting the D&D Multiverse and M:tG Multiverse...in a very loosely (and optionally) connected Megaverse. I mean, another Hasbro department (Transformers) already officially uses that term "Megaverse" to distinguish cross-overs (with GI Joe etc) from the Transformers Multiverse.

Overall your ideas are interesting, but I dont think they are feasible.

Thanks! We'll see! Will never happen if no one voices it.
 
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Savage Wombat

Adventurer
I can see it, but I can't see it. If you wanted to combine the two ideas you'd do so by throwing out the game map of both settings and creating a new one that draws elements from both. You'd be better off starting with Eberron's planar model, or Monte's Infinite Staircase (but with boats instead of stairs).

So it's not The Nine Hells, but there is a fiery world of devils in the astral sea that you can sail a frigate full of Haagen-Dazs to and trade for a breeding stock of hellhounds.
 

I understand the appeal of a universal map for D&D, but I don't think it would work. Or at least it would not be very useful.

I do think dropping a lot of the complications from Spelljammer would be a good idea. The astral plane just becomes hyperspace, more or less. You sail around in the astral sea to the color pool / jump gate you need. The one leading to the Nine Hells can only be opened with a hand basket.
 

gyor

Legend
We can't even get a full map of Toril, if you think we are getting, a full for Planescape/Spelljammer, good luck to you.
 

Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
It's really interesting to to me how many people seem to have an issue with the phlogiston. I don't understand why it makes sense to have an overlapping plane (astral, ethereal, shadow, whatever) but not fantasy space within the Prime/Prime Material.

A post above actually taps into the same issue, talking about the contrast between magical travle (through portals, doors, whatevers) and just taking a ship. To my mind, you'd have three options to travel world's: 1. Don't, 2. Take the slow, cheaper way (Spelljammer), or 3. Take the quick, expensive/demanding way (planar travel).

I also have some logistical issues with having spelljammers travel the Astral, since that would enable somebody to just sail their ship to an inner (or in some cases outer) plane. I vastly prefer a setup where tdifferent types of travel are needed to get you to different destinations.
 

jgsugden

Legend
It's really interesting to to me how many people seem to have an issue with the phlogiston. I don't understand why it makes sense to have an overlapping plane (astral, ethereal, shadow, whatever) but not fantasy space within the Prime/Prime Material.
When Spelljamming was first introduced, I, as a teenager, replaced the Phlogiston with the Astral Plane. At the time, I didn't want to add the 'Dead Space' to my games and the players were already touching on the Astral Plane. I think that is at the core of the issue... man of us are familiar with the Astral Plane and make use of it already, and it was a more efficient place for Spelljamming for us.
A post above actually taps into the same issue, talking about the contrast between magical travle (through portals, doors, whatevers) and just taking a ship. To my mind, you'd have three options to travel world's: 1. Don't, 2. Take the slow, cheaper way (Spelljammer), or 3. Take the quick, expensive/demanding way (planar travel).
This is how it works in my games. There are permanent gates to other planes, but most of them go to the Astral Plane. Some races, especially dwarves, create 'ports' on the other side of the gate and then sail across the Astral Sea to get to other ports/gates. In my game, these other gates may head back to other places on the PMP (which is infinitely wide), or to places where trade or mining takes place on other planes. If you want to use spells to travel the planes - fine - but it is hard to move cargo that way, and some of those spells are not precise where they take you on other planes. Also, some planar locations are shielded so that the only way to access them is through the established gate.
I also have some logistical issues with having spelljammers travel the Astral, since that would enable somebody to just sail their ship to an inner (or in some cases outer) plane. I vastly prefer a setup where tdifferent types of travel are needed to get you to different destinations.
It works like this in my game: Until PCs get access to Planeshift, they have to rely upon Spelljamming and gates to travel. Spelljamming is dangerous. The Githyanki claim the Astral Sea as their territory and attack any Spelljammer that does not have their permission to operate if they find them. It is a nigh infinite space, so they are rare. But there are also pirate ships, primarily Ratmen (Nezumi and Wererats), that plague those that sail the Astral Sea. Spelljamming can turn a 90 year voyage across the PMP into a 3 day trek across the Astral Sea, or allow Dwarves to mine Elemental Earth for resources to being back to the PMP after a brief sail of the Astral Sea, but it is risky and - if you wish to pay off the Gith - expensive.

Once access to Planeshift is gathered, you generally need to rely upon Sigil sequences to arrive in an exact location. Many extraplanar areas are warded against planar travel, so they can only be accessed via circles and gates. Alternatively, you can travel to a non-warded area and then physically move across the plane to your desitination. Regardless, if you have cargo to move, it is hard to do so with magic. Planeshifting brings you within 50 miles of your desired destination if it is not warded and you do not use a sigil destination, but your destination is usually determined by the powerful beings that have influence over the planes, such as Demon Lords, Devils, Gods and Giant Space Hampsters.

Finally, there are permanent Gates that connect two places on two different planes. The vast majority of these go to or from the Astral Plane. It is easiest to build a gate to the Astral. There are some gates that bypass the Astral, but they are rare... attempting to make them often ends in disaster. Unfortunately, then you make a gate to the Astral, although it is less perilous, it is hard to control where on the Astral it will appear. You might be creating a permament access point on your plane that is too close to a gate between the Abyss and the Astral Plane. Given the expense in making them, it is often preferable to establish one point of access to the Astral and then make use of other existing, safer, gates nearby than to try to make more. One other note on gates - it is not possible to make a permanent gate while on the Astral Plane... you have to be elsewhere when you make it. Any gate made on the Astral collapses over time, regardless of how well made it is.

I've used variations of the above model since the late 80s. It works really well and gives us some exciting opportunities for planar travel and advanced 'seafaring' for PCs in the middle levels.
 

It's just one thing too many really.

If there was no Astral, Phlogiston would be fine, but as it is, you have two things doing basically the same job (three if you count Ethereal), so it seams reasonable to infer that they are really the same thing.

A G.U.T. of D&D cosmology.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
...as well as seeing how the Federation deals with FR Gods.

C’mon...really? We ALL know how that works.

[video=youtube;wxT5hSBGbKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxT5hSBGbKE[/video]
[video=youtube;oVGK3fuD5Kw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVGK3fuD5Kw[/video]
 

gyor

Legend
C’mon...really? We ALL know how that works.

[video=youtube;wxT5hSBGbKE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxT5hSBGbKE[/video]
[video=youtube;oVGK3fuD5Kw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVGK3fuD5Kw[/video]

FR Gods are alot more powerful and dangerous then ST Beings, with mortal servants more powerful the ST Apollo, Kirk would have alot harder time dealing with them. Closer to dealing with Q, not not as powerful as Q.
 

Ath-kethin

Elder Thing
It's just one thing too many really.

If there was no Astral, Phlogiston would be fine, but as it is, you have two things doing basically the same job (three if you count Ethereal), so it seams reasonable to infer that they are really the same thing.

A G.U.T. of D&D cosmology.

That's an argument that would make sense if the two (phlogiston and Astral) were doing the same thing. But they aren't - unless, in your campaign setting, a person who levitates or flies high enough off the planet's surface ends up in the Astral plane, in which the planet's moons and starts float. Which isn't unreasonable for a fantasy world, but I don't believe it's the baseline assumption in any of them.

Or are you maintaining the basic idea of crystal spheres but placing them in the Astral? That makes sense enough, I suppose, though by that logic you can also use your levitate or fly spell to move yourself all the way to Ysgard or Gehenna. Which again is fine for a fantasy world if you want it that way, but seems a bit off to me.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
FR Gods are alot more powerful and dangerous then ST Beings, with mortal servants more powerful the ST Apollo, Kirk would have alot harder time dealing with them. Closer to dealing with Q, not not as powerful as Q.

While possibly true, it won’t stop them from TRYING. Remember the Secondary and Tertiary Directives?

Dir. 2nd: We Come In Peace

Dir. 3rd: Shoot To Kill

There’s also the issue of the information gap. At the very least, the first FR deities who draw fire from personal or ship-mounted phasers will probably get their avatars ashed if they don’t understand the power of the weapons in question. A single cruiser can render a defenseless planet lifeless, given time. Even the hand weapons are roughly equivalent to disintegrate spells when set to kill...with a huge capacity before being drained.

Capt. Tracey: “They sacrificed hundreds, just to draw us out in the open. And then they came, and they came. We drained four of our phasers, and they still came. We killed thousands and they still came.”

The Omega Glory

(And I personally wouldn’t put FR deities at Q level. In game terms, Q can essentially use Wish at will.)
 
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That's an argument that would make sense if the two (phlogiston and Astral) were doing the same thing. But they aren't - unless, in your campaign setting, a person who levitates or flies high enough off the planet's surface ends up in the Astral plane, in which the planet's moons and starts float. Which isn't unreasonable for a fantasy world, but I don't believe it's the baseline assumption in any of them.

Or are you maintaining the basic idea of crystal spheres but placing them in the Astral? That makes sense enough, I suppose, though by that logic you can also use your levitate or fly spell to move yourself all the way to Ysgard or Gehenna. Which again is fine for a fantasy world if you want it that way, but seems a bit off to me.

You can't reach the phlogiston simply by flying upwards, any more than you can reach the Astral. It's prime material all the way up (at least until you bump against the inside of the crystal sphere).

In either case it represents a transitory plane, the space between worlds, hyperspace. It's really an unnecessary complication from a game-play point of view (although technically not unreasonable) to have to travel through one type of hyperspace to get from Toril to Krynn, and a different type of hyperspace to get from Toril to Gehenna.

I believe that when Spelljammer was written it was intended that the "great wheel" cosmology would not be used in conjunction with it, so the steam-punk based Phlogiston would effectively replace the mysticism based Astral when players where using that setting.
 

gyor

Legend
While possibly true, it won’t stop them from TRYING. Remember the Secondary and Tertiary Directives?

Dir. 2nd: We Come In Peace

Dir. 3rd: Shoot To Kill

There’s also the issue of the information gap. At the very least, the first FR deities who draw fire from personal or ship-mounted phasers will probably get their avatars ashed if they don’t understand the power of the weapons in question. A single cruiser can render a defenseless planet lifeless, given time. Even the hand weapons are roughly equivalent to disintegrate spells when set to kill...with a huge capacity before being drained.



(And I personally wouldn’t put FR deities at Q level. In game terms, Q can essentially use Wish at will.)

I put them somewhere between Beings which are more like Empyreans in power and Q, AO would be at Q's level. I'm trying to think of beings in Star Trek at FR Deity power levels.

I'd say the FR deities are roughly at the power level of Ego from Guardians of the Galaxy 2, but that isn't Star Trek.
 
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gyor

Legend
It's just one thing too many really.

If there was no Astral, Phlogiston would be fine, but as it is, you have two things doing basically the same job (three if you count Ethereal), so it seams reasonable to infer that they are really the same thing.

A G.U.T. of D&D cosmology.

If I was going to merge the Phlogiston and a plane it would be the Ethereal plane, because its connects all the Mortal worlds, the Mirror Planes (Shadowfell, Feywild), the Elemental Planes, and in the Deeper Ethereal the Astral Plane, which fits spelljammer better.
 


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