Planetars and Solars, Upper_Krust, what were your modified CRs?

[Anubis]

Topic says it all. Does anyone know what Upper_Krust's modified CRs for PLanetars and Solars were?

I figured I'd use the original numbers until I actually read their powers. Considering a Planetar has the same spellcasting ability as a Level 17 Cleric, it should be AT LEAST a CR 17. (That's the CR of a Level 17 Cleric, and Planetars are quite a bit more powerful.) Same with Solars except they have Level 20 casting abilities, meaning they should be over CR 20 and certainly epic.

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Topic says it all. Does anyone know what Upper_Krust's modified CRs for PLanetars and Solars were?

I figured I'd use the original numbers until I actually read their powers. Considering a Planetar has the same spellcasting ability as a Level 17 Cleric, it should be AT LEAST a CR 17. (That's the CR of a Level 17 Cleric, and Planetars are quite a bit more powerful.) Same with Solars except they have Level 20 casting abilities, meaning they should be over CR 20 and certainly epic.

Can anyone enlighten me?

I'll give it a shot!

For Outsiders a rough estimate is:

- HD 11-15 add +3
eg. Balor 13+3 = CR16
- HD 16-20 add +4
- HD 21-30 add +6
eg. Solar 22+6 = CR28 modified to CR24*

*remember levels between 21-40 only add +1/2 CR; levels between 41-80 only add +1/4 CR.

This is just a rough estimate. Some probably shouldn't have the bonus (like the Goristro in Manual of the Planes). However, Outsiders should never have a CR less than its HD unless it has been advanced.

Regarding Divine Ranks I would equate Divine Rank 0 with +8 effective class levels and each subsequent rank as +4.

eg. Iuz 20HD/Clr20/Ass10 + Divine Rank 3 (=+20) Total 70 effective class levels.

First 20 = CR20
Between 21-40 = +10 CR
Between 41-70 = +7 CR

CR37

Solars are equivalent to Divine Rank 0, but they are weaker in some aspects (ability scores for one) than standard deities. Hence they don't deserve the full +8 bonus, but rather +6.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Planetars and Solars, Upper_Krust, what were your modified CRs?

Iuz 20HD/Clr20/Ass10

The abbreviation for assassin is actually Asn.

http://www.d20statblock.org/

 

[Phynoderee]

The abbreviation for assassin is actually Asn.

As in ASiNine.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, Krusty IS writing a d20 supplement, and it's good to have everything in working order...

 

[MonkeyBoy]

No, no, no Iuz just has 10 levels of Donkey.

For which Ass is a good abbrev IMHO

 

[Upper_Krust]

Thanks guys!

 

[Anubis]

Thanks, UK! CR 24 seems MUCH more fitting for the Solar. But I thought you actually had specific new CRs for some of them? I never knew you came up with a system.

On that note, now I actually have some issues with it. Using your system, the Planetar comes out at CR 17, which I still think is too low, mainly because it still has the same CR as a Level 17 Cleric while having MUCH greater powers, including equal spellcasting ability and a bunch of stuff PCs of the same level would not have.

My big gripe is with your putting the Balor at CR 16. Perhaps you should rethink the system to be based on something besides HD. You do realize Balors come with Vorpal weapons and Meteor Swarm, right? I think the book's CR 18 is generous, I'd put it more like CR 19 or 20. Or do you honestly believe a group of Level 16 characters could beat a Balor? (Sure, possible with disintegrate, but not bloody likely.)

Perhaps there should be modifiers based on special abilities? Your Solar turns out good, but the Planetar and Balor are both STILL underrated by the system.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

Thanks, UK! CR 24 seems MUCH more fitting for the Solar. But I thought you actually had specific new CRs for some of them? I never knew you came up with a system.

Initially I did simply come up with new CRs. But a quick and simple mechanism saves a lot of time.

On that note, now I actually have some issues with it. Using your system, the Planetar comes out at CR 17, which I still think is too low, mainly because it still has the same CR as a Level 17 Cleric while having MUCH greater powers, including equal spellcasting ability and a bunch of stuff PCs of the same level would not have.

Believe it or not I actually had Planetars at CR19-20 when I predetermined them.

Planetars are equal to 17th-level Clerics but they do suffer from a severe deficit in magic items compared to a 17th-level character!

My big gripe is with your putting the Balor at CR 16. Perhaps you should rethink the system to be based on something besides HD. You do realize Balors come with Vorpal weapons and Meteor Swarm, right?

Actually they don't have Meteor Swarm.

Vorpal Swords will always give you the edge (no pun intended) but they would never add more than +1 to a CR.

I think the book's CR 18 is generous, I'd put it more like CR 19 or 20. Or do you honestly believe a group of Level 16 characters could beat a Balor? (Sure, possible with disintegrate, but not bloody likely.)

I do believe a group of 4 x 16th-level characters would defeat a Balor (in a fight to the finish).

Perhaps there should be modifiers based on special abilities? Your Solar turns out good, but the Planetar and Balor are both STILL underrated by the system.

There are no hard and fast mechanics that can cover every ability. The best you can hope for is a 'rough estimate' (as with the above system)

 

[Anubis]

That's right, they have IMPLOSION, which can be worse. Pit Fiends are the ones with Meteor Swarm. (Yet they also have CR 16 in the book AND by your method.) That's just not right. What makes a Balor more powerful?

I do not think a Level 16 party would stand a chance in Hell of defeating a Balor. At least, not without losing AT LEAST one person, maybe two. Between implosion, the vorpal weapon, and Death Throes, how could such a party survive?

I think Balors are okay at CR 18 or CR 19, but the Pit Fiend is FAR more powerful, having Meteor Swarm.

What do you say about Titans and Tarrasque? Obviously they are VERY underrated . . . Titans have more powerful than a Rank 0 or 1 deity, and Tarrasque . . . MY GOD WHAT POWER . . .

As for Planetars, I think CR 20 could be good.