Plate Armor - It isn't really that heavy!
- Thread starter Anabstercorian
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Bonedagger
First Post
Imperialus said:
Nice stuff
Darklone
Registered User
Myths about european swords...
Common myth. Bad quality european swords were not common. Breaking swords were seldom reported in sources other than myths and legends or fairy tales. The sword itself was not very common either. Why bother to train with a sword if you can easily hit the enemy with a hammer?
Those reports are usually from the same sources as the ones who wanna tell us that a good sword weighs several kilograms. Italian twohanders have been reported with weights of 1500 g. Bastard swords were usually about 1000g, spatha around 800g. And no, these weapons don't break easily on enemy armour. At least not when wielded by someone with rudimentary training.
Don't you wonder why these guys made such wonderful armours impenetrable to bolts, arrows and firearms but at the same time their swords were fuzzywork?
Imperialus said:
Common myth. Bad quality european swords were not common. Breaking swords were seldom reported in sources other than myths and legends or fairy tales. The sword itself was not very common either. Why bother to train with a sword if you can easily hit the enemy with a hammer?
Those reports are usually from the same sources as the ones who wanna tell us that a good sword weighs several kilograms. Italian twohanders have been reported with weights of 1500 g. Bastard swords were usually about 1000g, spatha around 800g. And no, these weapons don't break easily on enemy armour. At least not when wielded by someone with rudimentary training.
Don't you wonder why these guys made such wonderful armours impenetrable to bolts, arrows and firearms but at the same time their swords were fuzzywork?
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MythandLore
First Post
Check out these links, these guys crack me up.
Whoops, he broke his sword.
http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/sword_break01.avi
http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/sword_break02.avi
Jumpin' around in armor.
http://www.thehaca.com/houston/Mmbrs/MBRVDS/newvds/fullarmor.avi
Chop Chop Chop!
http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/TestCutting/TestCuttingEvent2.htm
Whoops, he broke his sword.
http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/sword_break01.avi
http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/sword_break02.avi
Jumpin' around in armor.
http://www.thehaca.com/houston/Mmbrs/MBRVDS/newvds/fullarmor.avi
Chop Chop Chop!
http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/TestCutting/TestCuttingEvent2.htm
Darklone
Registered User
Excuse me...
Since I cannot watch that video... I assume it shows how fast a sword broke?
Well. I am used to someone who builds swords today like he thinks they did 1000 years ago without comparing his results properly to relics and noticing that they are different...
No offence if you are different. We have guys here in Europe too that rebuild swords totally different to old pieces and break them. Or think they should weigh 5 kg. And still think Japanese katana were sooo much different.
Excuse me, I have to go back to work. Scientific Metals Research. Archaeological (spelling?) swords are only a hobby, so I leave it to the "experts". Gone fishing.
Since I cannot watch that video... I assume it shows how fast a sword broke?
Well. I am used to someone who builds swords today like he thinks they did 1000 years ago without comparing his results properly to relics and noticing that they are different...
No offence if you are different. We have guys here in Europe too that rebuild swords totally different to old pieces and break them. Or think they should weigh 5 kg. And still think Japanese katana were sooo much different.
Excuse me, I have to go back to work. Scientific Metals Research. Archaeological (spelling?) swords are only a hobby, so I leave it to the "experts". Gone fishing.
Rashak Mani
First Post
great videos and links... got anymore ?
MythandLore
First Post
I have no idea what you trying to say right there, or who your addressing, seriously, I don't.Darklone said:
Anyway, The video (1st and 2nd) was from a bamboo cutting demo, the guy was doing fine, then he go to a peice that just wouldn't cut and he endded up snapping his sword in half.
The blade flew like over 20 feet, pretty damn funny if you ask me.
The 3rd video is the same guy doing a sword demo in full plate.
Anyway the 4th one was a link, you could have looked at that one.
Here it is again so you wont get confused.
http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/Te...ttingEvent2.htm
It's a big get together where they chop a bunch of stuff up.
If you have a chance check out the videos they're pretty interesting.
Sure, I'll give you links to the stuff on their site worth lookin' at.Rashak Mani said:
Their an interesting bunch, western fencing with japanese sword basiclly.
Here's their "Introduction to Historical European Martial Arts" page.
http://www.thehaca.com/HEMA.htm
This is their main video page.
http://www.thehaca.com/Videos/Videos.htm
This is their "Historical Manuals" page.
http://www.thehaca.com/manuals.htm
Ooo. If you like Old chinese weapons this site rocks.
http://www.chinesearms.com/
Here's someone's page on damascus steel.
http://www.techfak.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_1.html
http://www.techfak.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_4.html
Another page on Damascus.
http://netinfo.hypermart.net/telingsteel.htm
Here's the "big" famous article on wootz damascus.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html
This site has some interesting articles on Western Martial Arts if your into that sort of thing.
http://ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm
Kriegspiel
First Post
Re: Re: Plate Armor - It isn't really that heavy!
Well if we're going to be nitpicky. The term "Chainmail" is itself an oxymoron.
The term "mail" is derived from the Middle English "maile" which most likely came to England from France around the time of The Hundred Years War, were it was derived from the Middle French word "Maille" meaning: a ring of mail, mesh, network, a coat of mail.
The term is originally derived from the Latin word Macula, meaning: mesh or net; which in turn is derived from the Latin word for "spot or dot", the connection being that from a distance a net is visible as a cluster of spots (ie the knots). The term becomes "Maglia" in Italian before migrating to the aforementioned French "maille".
The term "Chainmail" was first coined in the late 1700's, another example of the Victorian flair for redundancy.
Don't ever let John Clements ever hear you say that! lol
Actually HACA (or whatever their new name is) is very meticulous about basing their techniques on period European fighting manuals (Talhoffer, De Libre etc). You won't see any eastern techniques being practices (although when it comes down to it, there are enough similarities that anyone learning eastern sword forms would probably recognize quite a bit).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of other points:
On the issue of the availability of Plate:
It all depends on the timeframe (don't forget we're talking about a period that covers several hundred years). Early on, Plate was certainly the province of the wealthy while the majority of combatants were in Mail (or less). However towards the end of the Age of Plate there were periods were smiths had perfected the techniques to the point that the cost of Plate was considerably more affordable. This is when you would find Plate produced in large enough quantities to outfit a much larger number of troops.
"Marks of proof"--it was also common practice for an Armorer to only use a half-measure of powder when "testing" his Breastplate. Truth in advertising was as unlikely then as it is now.
Regarding the ability to sleep in Armor:
A Knight in full harness who's been fighting for the better part of a day and expects more of the same on the 'morrow, would have absolutely no trouble sleeping in his Armor. It's no different than the modern combatant sleeping in the back of a Helicopter dealing with the roar of the engine & blades, the smell of vomit, the constant buffeting & rollercoaster ride, and the stress of knowing that a battle draws inexorably closer; at the same time burdened with a Helmet, Flak Jacket, a couple of hundred rounds of ammo, a 75-100lb Ruck and a personal weapon (that's not counting extra ammo for the SAW Gunner, mortar baseplates, extra barrels for the SAW or MMG etc). Given the right circumstances the human body can become accustomed to just about anything.
Finally on the comment about the medieval Knight being smaller and weaker than his serf counterparts:
The landed gentry may not have dined on the perfect food combinations, but it was certainly orders of magnitude healthier than the single source subsistence diets the average serf was forced to make do with.
Adult size is as much a product of diet as it is genetics. The Knight had a substantial advantage in this regard. He also spent much of his day in training in the arts of war, as physical an endeavour as that faced by the farmer plowing his fields. Yes, the average Knight was a commanding physical presence when compared to his landless contemporary, and outstrips the average "modern" in terms of strength & endurance.
Col_Pladoh said:
Well if we're going to be nitpicky. The term "Chainmail" is itself an oxymoron.
The term "mail" is derived from the Middle English "maile" which most likely came to England from France around the time of The Hundred Years War, were it was derived from the Middle French word "Maille" meaning: a ring of mail, mesh, network, a coat of mail.
The term is originally derived from the Latin word Macula, meaning: mesh or net; which in turn is derived from the Latin word for "spot or dot", the connection being that from a distance a net is visible as a cluster of spots (ie the knots). The term becomes "Maglia" in Italian before migrating to the aforementioned French "maille".
The term "Chainmail" was first coined in the late 1700's, another example of the Victorian flair for redundancy.
MythandLore said:
Sure, I'll give you links to the stuff on their site worth lookin' at.
Their an interesting bunch, western fencing with japanese sword basiclly.
Don't ever let John Clements ever hear you say that! lol
Actually HACA (or whatever their new name is) is very meticulous about basing their techniques on period European fighting manuals (Talhoffer, De Libre etc). You won't see any eastern techniques being practices (although when it comes down to it, there are enough similarities that anyone learning eastern sword forms would probably recognize quite a bit).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of other points:
On the issue of the availability of Plate:
It all depends on the timeframe (don't forget we're talking about a period that covers several hundred years). Early on, Plate was certainly the province of the wealthy while the majority of combatants were in Mail (or less). However towards the end of the Age of Plate there were periods were smiths had perfected the techniques to the point that the cost of Plate was considerably more affordable. This is when you would find Plate produced in large enough quantities to outfit a much larger number of troops.
"Marks of proof"--it was also common practice for an Armorer to only use a half-measure of powder when "testing" his Breastplate. Truth in advertising was as unlikely then as it is now.
Regarding the ability to sleep in Armor:
A Knight in full harness who's been fighting for the better part of a day and expects more of the same on the 'morrow, would have absolutely no trouble sleeping in his Armor. It's no different than the modern combatant sleeping in the back of a Helicopter dealing with the roar of the engine & blades, the smell of vomit, the constant buffeting & rollercoaster ride, and the stress of knowing that a battle draws inexorably closer; at the same time burdened with a Helmet, Flak Jacket, a couple of hundred rounds of ammo, a 75-100lb Ruck and a personal weapon (that's not counting extra ammo for the SAW Gunner, mortar baseplates, extra barrels for the SAW or MMG etc). Given the right circumstances the human body can become accustomed to just about anything.
Finally on the comment about the medieval Knight being smaller and weaker than his serf counterparts:
The landed gentry may not have dined on the perfect food combinations, but it was certainly orders of magnitude healthier than the single source subsistence diets the average serf was forced to make do with.
Adult size is as much a product of diet as it is genetics. The Knight had a substantial advantage in this regard. He also spent much of his day in training in the arts of war, as physical an endeavour as that faced by the farmer plowing his fields. Yes, the average Knight was a commanding physical presence when compared to his landless contemporary, and outstrips the average "modern" in terms of strength & endurance.
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