Plate v. Scale Armor

[robsenworldaccount]

By your previous example:

Rogue has 16 ac
Paladin has a 20 ac. The paladin marks the enemy in question
Rogue now has 18 ac (Plate mail) towards the marked enemy attacks rogue

Say this "intelligent" Enemy attacks rogue. The intelligent enemy "knows" he will AUTOMATICALLY punished for doing so; in this case, for 8dmg.
(your rogue was specd for DPR lets have our pally spec to punish eh)

Simply put: is a +2 to hit worth taking 8dmg? In addition, if this "intelligent" enemy keeps that behavior up, its effects are cumulative. That can equate to a serious amount of dmg.

Intelligent trade off?

Idk do your "intelligent" enemies value HP as just a number, or a figure to represent how close you they are to DEATH.

My answer; would your rogue take a +2 to hit something but take 8 dmg in the process thereof?
P.S= Character hp is not indicative of all "enemy" hp, but the example is meant to facilitate the fundamental idea that these "enemys" are supposed to care about their own survival. Not just taking out a chess piece.


In addition, if your Pally uses things like Enfeebling strike your rogue now has the same AC as the pally.

Just a dissenting viewpoint from the peanut gallery.
Most likely that of the creators as well

 

[hong]

Idk do your "intelligent" enemies value HP as just a number, or a figure to represent how close you they are to DEATH.

They probably value them as much as the players value their PCs' hp.

My answer; would your rogue take a +2 to hit something but take 8 dmg in the process thereof?

Hell yeah. And there are weapon enchantments that let you trade hp for damage, or AC for damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

Rogue has 16 ac
Paladin has a 20 ac. The paladin marks the enemy in question
Rogue now has 18 ac (Plate mail) towards the marked enemy attacks rogue
...

In addition, if your Pally uses things like Enfeebling strike your rogue now has the same AC as the pally.

No, the Rogue now has AC 20 and the Paladin has AC 22 for this foe.

 

[domino]

I AM using Enfeebling Strike, for extra penalty goodness.

Having talked to the DM, I think I'm going to stick with heavy armor, just in a dragon scale motif, and from what he said, count on the enemies to be too dumb to realise they can't hit me as easily.

 

[Elric]

My answer; would your rogue take a +2 to hit something but take 8 dmg in the process thereof?

At low-mid heroic, on an at-will? Not in general. A level 5 Rogue with 13 Con and Toughness has 50 HP. Not counting certain AV-items, maybe you're doing 25 damage on an at-will. Even given that PCs have "group HP" in a way monsters do not, that's not a good trade.

For a monster that's currently the target of party attacks, it would be an even worse trade (no group HP to take advantage of), though from a selfless tactician's perspective it could be worthwhile for a monster that's normally going to get attacked only late in the combat.

 

[Goumindong]

The only concern you should be looking at is whether or not you can afford the extra -2 penalty on skill checks until paragon tier. But you probably won't have enough dex anyway, so its almost a moot point. If you're a fighter, its probably still a good idea even though it costs you a feat.

Anyway, the question of "too much AC" almost never happens in my experience. This is both as playing a 1-3rd level fighter, a 6-8th level fighter and DM'ing 9 levels with a Chaladin. AND in the math. I cannot say much except that "High AC and lots of healing surges is something every defender should have" is a lesson learned from my play.

The math however, is pretty explicit. Lets assume that you're a 18 str/18 cha level 1 Dragonborn Paladin. Your Divine Challenge hits for 7 damage and you have 20 AC. Your buddy is an 18 dex rogue with leather armor for 16 AC.

Alright, so if an enemy attacks your buddy he has to get an 18 and if he attacks you he has to get a 20. This is a difference of 2/20 or 1/10. So, if we also assume that he does 10 damage average. When he attacks the rogue he trades marginal outgoing DPR of 1 for a marginal incoming DPR of 7. If you are wearing scale instead, the marginal outgoing DPR is .5 and marginal incoming DPR is 7.

Now, the question is not really "what is the DPR difference that they see" the question is "what is the ratio at which its rational to stop attacking the paladin and start attacking someone else" because so long as you're within that ratio they're going to attack you and if that is the case then you want the marginal outgoing DPR to be as high as possible.

Anyway, hit points aren't created equal. At lower levels you and the monsters are about equal in terms of hit points and DPR. As you go up in level, monsters start getting more high points than you pretty quickly. BUT: You can heal easily and they cannot.

The fact that you can heal at lower levels makes your hit points less valuable than the monsters. If you go below zero you can probably be brought back up the next round to 1/4 your hit points +1d6. To top that off, any damage that was done to you in the negative range... its as if that never existed. Its the same way at upper levels but you have more ways to heal and more bonuses added on top of it.

So at level one the monsters ask "Is +1 DPR out worth +7 DPR in" and the answer is going to be, almost invariably "no"[iirc you've got to get to something like 1:2 to make it worth it, but getting that exactly is beyond the scope of this question].

But clearly that isn't the case all the time, there have to be extenuating circumstances that make the enemy want to hit someone else other than the Paladin. And the answer is yes, there are, but they are largely going to want to attack anyone other than the Paladin in those situations anyway, so you're not really losing much.

The "when" those things happen is when the 7 damage that you will be doing is inconsequential. I.E. if your striker hits for 10 minimum damage and the enemy has 9 hit points the 7 damage largely do not matter, he is going down the next round and he is going down in 1 successful attack, whether or not he takes the extra damage or not.[Also, if the enemy expects to die in a single OA and so would not be likely to get any more actions after the next turn anyway]

There are other instances too. Single target encounter powers are a big one. The bigger the average damage the more that the enemy wants to use it on someone else[his marginal outgoing DPR will be going up, usually 2-3 fold]. These can be a big deal. but these are more likely to be burst powers anyway, and as well, you're going to need times when your allies take a beating for you. There is such thing as "defending too well".

Anyway, the point is, go with plate, the guy you marked is going to attack you(and maybe others too to try and focus fire)

 

[Doctor Proctor]

To be honest, it depends a lot on how the DM and the PC play. The more important thing to look at is whether or not you'll qualify for one of the Specialization feats. If you've got enough CON or DEX to qualify for one of them, then I would pick that armor type to use (Scale being the better of the two if you can qualify IMO).

If you qualify for neither though, then I think it could go either way. Perhaps stay in Scale for Heroic tier and trade up to Plate when you get into Paragon. That way, you can have access to some of the great Masterwork bonuses and Enchantments for the Plate mail, and you can better absorb the big negatives to your Skills.

Plus, remember that you can take your shield off as a standard action to get rid of at least part of your penalty. While it won't help you in combat, it's something that you can do for out of combat checks and such.