Player abusing the rules? [long]

[Zoombaba]

Ok--

In D&D3e, under what circumstances would a 7th level Ranger get to have 3 attacks without penalty? Ever?

Here's my situation:

I've been playing with the same group about 5 years now, through games like GURPS and Cthulhu. For years I've been trying to fit my style on this group with poor results. I've given up, run D&D3e as game of choice for the last 3 months. It's strictly beer and pretzels, hack'n'slash, rules-lawyering gaming. All the players flocked to the game, bought Player Handbooks, and love it. Since I have another gaming group I play with to get my rules-light story-oriented roleplaying in with, everyone is happy, and I generally like these guys I play DnD with.

Problem is, as DM, I don't know the rules as well as the players. Often, that means accomodating players and deferring to their knowledge. Unfortunately, I might have one player whose snowing me.

It started like this. When he created his Dwarf Ranger, he insisted that he should be able to use a Dwarven Urgosh without Exotic Weapon Proficiency. I couldn't find any rules one way or the other, so I allowed it. I still feel bad about this decision, because it felt unbalancing at the time.

Then he starts using this Urgosh immediately as a double attack according to the Ranger two-weapon fighting rules. It wasn't until his character reached 5th level, that I found out that he left key points of those rules out. By then, his Ranger got 2 attacks per full attack anyway, so it became a moot point. I did mention it at the time, but it was trivial. Now, he's at 7th level, and now he's using 3 attacks per round. I've been paying attention elsewhere, so I never thought about it.

Last night, he wasn't around, and one person--who I tend to think of as having the best game knowledge at the table--informs me that he's known for weeks that the Ranger's player has been misusing the rules all along.

Maybe it wasn't intentional, I don't know. But the fact is, here's a player who, once one of my best players, is zooming toward power-gamer land. You can see it in his eyes when you rule against him. He's become more argumentative and nit-picky. It's nuts. It's not exactly like playing in junior high again, but it's headed that direction. He's a good guy, dependable, and he shows up on time always. It's just this move toward munchkinism isn't helped by my wishy-washy DM'ing. And it's not being fair to the other players, who are playing their characters within the rules.

So, how do I break it too him that we've been playing the game wrong without further antagonizing this aspect?

Your help is appreciated,

Zoombaba

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Salutations,

Well, one solution might to be start a new campeign.

This time around- be more careful about checking out the character before the game. I have my players email me complete break downs and I check them over so both they and I interpret rules the same way.

In the future, just be sure to find the rule in writing instead of taking their word on it. Even the most honest of players can mis-read something.

You don't need to memorize all the rules to dm, but be sure to read over carefully anything the players are using.

FD

 

[Zoombaba]

Furn_Darkside sayeth the word:
<i>
Well, one solution might to be start a new campeign.
</i>

We talked about it last night, so it's something of an option. Actually, someone else would probably DM.

With that said, we're about halfway through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, so I'd have to say, it's not likely we'll break, and I'd hate this to be the reason the group doesn't finish it.

Thanks,
Zoombaba

 

[Forrester]

To be honest, rangers aren't exactly the most munchkinny of classes. Some people have house-ruled that rangers can use their virtual feats with double-weapons, and found that it really doesn't break anything. And giving him the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for free was a little bit of a stretch, but frankly I don't think it's a big deal.

Given your greenness, though, I would check other things to make sure you're playing them right:

1) He is fighting with SOME penalties, correct? -2 per attack when he double-wields?
2) You only give him half of his strength bonus (rounded *down*) with an off-hand attack, correct?
3) In general he should find it difficult to get full-round attacks off, especially with his stubby short dwarven legs. Remember that unless he's hasted, the only way he gets three attacks is if he uses a full-round action (and moves no more than 5').

It sounds like he's getting pushy, and so you probably still need some advice for that. But right now, based solely on what you've said, it doesn't sound like he's becoming the powergamer from hell.

[EDIT: You might also want to ask the guy who knew whatshisnuts was breaking the rules, why he didn't speak up sooner. The game isn't supposed to be a big competition between the players and the DM, it's supposed to be a competition between the characters and the DM-run NPCs/mobs. I'd ask him whether he's noticed anything else, and tell him he should be free to tell you what he knows, either in front of others or in private.]

 

[Akunin]

There are two rules your player is misusing, from what I can see:

a. Just because it has "Dwarven" in the name, doesn't mean that any Dwarf should be proficient in its use. Make him take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for it, or suffer the non-proficient penalty.

b. the rules state that a Ranger's Two-Weapon Fighting virtual Feats don't work for double-ended weapons (or when in Medium or Heavy Armor).

If he's breaking the rules and counting on you not knowing about it, then he's cheating. As the DM, it's your prerogative to punish cheating players.

If he was in my campaign, I'd allow him to re-adjust his Feats (sacrificing his most recent Feat gained for the Exotic Proficiency) and re-calculate his attack bonuses. If he balked at this, I'd be asking him to make a new character and play by the rules, or not come to games.

 

[Thaumaturge]

You only give him half of his strength bonus (rounded *down*) with an off-hand attack, correct?

This doesn't apply for double weapons because they are two-handed weapons.


Thaumaturge.

 

[Forrester]

You're wrong.

If the ranger attacks with it as a two-handed weapon, he'll get the full 1.5x modifier.

If he uses it as a double weapon, he'll get 1x the strength modifier on the main attacks (two, at this point given his BAB), and .5x the strength modifier on the off-hand attack.

 

[Henry]

All right, Point #:

1. Are you playing the Base attack bonus for multiple attacks correctly? (2nd iterative attack is -5 to hit from the first, and all attacks are -2/-2 to hit because of two-weapon fighting)? If so, then he should not be unbalancing all that much. The other fighters are probably either pacing him or outstripping him in combat.
2. Is everyone having fun? If so, and this player is not outshining the others, or is demanding more attention, then Don't worry too much about it. If the other players don't mind, then there is no reson to make a big issue of it. Simply pull him aside, tell him that because of a mistake you made in the rules, you didn't realize that the rules didn't play that way. Tell him that you'll continue to play them that way, but if it becomes too unbalancing, you may have to discuss other options with him (such as giving up his 9th level feat to balance out the free Urgrosh Proficiency).
3. Always rememebr that you don't have to know all the rules. First-time running any unfamilair game will being problems like this. They are not a problem, but more of a learning experience.
4. Remember that DM's word is final, but be fair. If he is rules-lawyering everything, you need to firmly tell him any changes to the rules you decide to make, and allow the players to "ret-con" (take back) any decisions that they made on how the rules USED TO work.
   [/list=1]
   
   
   Good luck in your game, and I hope you can get your problems with this player sorted out!

 

[Ishamael]

In need of advice?

Sounds like you have a nasty situation on your hands. Always be sure to check the rules.

1. He should get a free Exotic Weapon feat for the dwarf. You are right, it is unbalanced. The dwarf does not get free proficiency with the Urgosh, nor does an elf get it with an elven thinblade.

2. How was he getting 2 attacks per round at 5th level? You shouldn't get that until 6th.

3. Rangers (by official rules) cannot use their two-weapon fighting abilities on double weapons. Many have house ruled this however. Makes that one level of ranger even more attractive.

4. Even at 7th level, he will still have penalties for using a double weapon. With one weapon you would get two attacks. One at full base attack + modifiers and a second at your second base attack + modifiers. Using two weapons, even with Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity will still yield at least -2 on both your main attack and the bonus attack gained from the off-hand weapon. You would have 2 attacks at base attack bonus -2, and one at second attack bonus.

Remember, a Ranger looses his virtual feats if he is wearing heavy armor.

Personally, I agree with Furn. Start a new campaign. Make sure you look over their characters next time. If you see anything that feels unbalanced, be sure you look it up, it probabaly is.

Just my two coppers.

 

[EOL]

There seems to be two issues here, the dwarven ranger's abuse of the rules and your general problem that you don't know the rules as well as the players.

As far as how you handle the immediate problem of the dwarven ranger there have already been quite a few good ideas, but I think your going to continue having these problems in a different form as long as you rely on them for the rules. So I would offer a few of suggestions.

First get to know the three core books really well.

Second have a standing rule that anytime anybody wants to introduce anything outside of the three core books they have to run it by you, even if it's something like the Sword and Fist (some would say especially if it's from Sword and Fist ) This way you can always evaluate something before it starts hosing your campaign.

Third and this is the big one make them show you where it says something, not have you try and show them where it doesn't. If you had followed this rule the dwarven Urgosh never would have been a problem, because he would have had to show you explicitly where it said Dwarves got a free exotic weapon proficiency, it doesn't ever say that so the problem would have never arisen.

Finally make sure that people know this is a cooperative game and that if you find out that people have been abusing the rules or helping other players abuse the rules then their characters get retired and the have to create new ones, or something similar.