Player abusing the rules? [long]

[Piratecat]

Good advice so far. Note that Forrester is correct about the strength breakdown.

It seems to me that the problem is not "He's raping the rules and he's now a munchkin," it's "he's raping the rules and he knows he shouldn't be." That's called cheating, and it's inexcusable in my opinion.

I would sit down with him and have a discussion. I would insist:

1. He swap out a feat to become "legal" with the dwarven urgosh, or take "exotic weapon: urgosh" with his next feat, or he will have to take the attack penalty for non-proficiency.

2. He assign the standard -2/-2 penalty on both the primary and off-hand attacks when using it as a double weapon, as well as the same penalty (at a -5 BAB, as usual) for the iteratrive attack.

3. He use his standard strength bonus for damage with the primary and iterative attacks, and .5 strength bonus for the off-hand attacks.

4. It's worth noting that by the book, rangers can't use their virtual feats with a double weapon; but it seems a fair and balanced thing to allow.

5. Cheating is unacceptable. It's his job to know and apply the correct rules unless he wants his PC micromanaged. Rules whining should take place after the game, and shouldn't slow a game down.

I catch everything?

 

[Zoombaba]

Hey, thanks for all this advice. It's great.

I'd have to say the general spirit of the game is closest to Henry's assessment of it. He's probably cheating, but I can't really prove it. Its not a HUGE problem, just a nagging issue that has the potential for something bigger. As far as how unbalanced the Ranger is--not even remotely huge. Yes, the Fighter is outstripping the Ranger. The Ranger and the Paladin tend to be on an even keel.

I'm inclined to throw this issue back at the player. First discuss with him the rules issues involved, and then allow him to continue to play the character as he has until the end of the campaign. I may or may not tweak his balancing issues with future swaps of abilities, but generally, I'll let him know the next character will conform more to the rules as written.

Furthermore, I'll end this campaign at the end of the module. It's likely someone else will be DM, and I need a break anyway.

Thanks,
Zoombaba

 

[el Voz]

One thing that has been left out and may be assumed, but you should still mention it.

All past transgressions are forgotten. What ever happened happened, no future saying "we did ____ before this way."

 

[Victim]

Technically, the ranger's virtual 2 weapon feats don't work with double weapons. However, allowing them to work isn't a major issue.

I'd make the player switch out one of his current feats for the exotic weapon proficiency.

His first two attacks should be at -2 each and the thrid should be at -7. If he says he has no penalties, he's lying or stupid.

Primary Head attack 1:

+7 base (lvl 7 ranger) +STR mod +primary head weapon mod +misc. feats (ie weapon focus) -2 two weapon penalty = +5 + feats +magic +ability

Dmg: 1d8 +STR +magic

Off hand attack 1:

+5 +STR +second magic +feats
Dmg: 1d6 +.5*STR +second magic

Primary head attack 2:

0 +STR +magic +feats
Dmg: see #1

For example, if said character had 18 STR, a +2/+1 thingy, and weapon focus, he'd attack as follows:

Primary 1: +12 melee Dmg: 1d8+6
Secondary 1: +11 melee Dmg: 1d6+3
Primary 2: +7 melee Dmg: 1d8+6

Keep in mind that he can only use these attacks when making a Full Attack Action. If he charges, or moves more than 5 ft to reach the target, he can only get one attack. Of course that attack can treated as a more favorable 2 handed attack instead of a 2 weapon attack.

With the same stats, his 2 handed attack would look like

+14 melee Dmg 1d8+8

Keep in mind that Haste is used quite often by adventuring groups, and can do crazy things to movement and attacks. For example, if this character was within normal move distance of an enemy and was hasted, he could perform a partial charge, and then a full attack. Ouch.
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Attempt to find a player you can trust, and set that person keep track of rules, look stuff up, and make sure everyone's character is legal.

Also, collecting people's character sheets at the end of each session allows you to double check all their stats and make adjustments.

 

[Kichwas]

Research the rules on this point.

Next session hit him with all them.


As people have said he is not even proficient with the weapon because rangers don't get that with double weapons.


Give him the option of switching out the character or being stuck with the rules properly applied.

If it was an accidental rules misread on his part; which I seriously doubt, I would let him redesign the character a bit. But since it seems purposeful I would just force the proper rules on the character as it is.

 

[your_mother]

YOU'RE WRONG!

No wait, I was just kidding with the subject of this post.

But seriously, if this is the only issue you guys are having--and you are still having fun--then what's the problem?

I mean, you ARE still having fun, right? Is his extra attack(s) or whatever, actually hurting the story or the experience that you and your group are having?

 

[psionotic]

Re: YOU'RE WRONG!

But seriously, if this is the only issue you guys are having--and you are still having fun--then what's the problem?

I mean, you ARE still having fun, right? Is his extra attack(s) or whatever, actually hurting the story or the experience that you and your group are having?

I can see what you're saying mom, but judging by the original post, no one is really having fun. The ranger is always arguing rulings, and his co-players are likely resentful of the power gain achieved by his cheating. And the DM is obviously frustrated, or he wouldn't be posting here.

So I totally agree with Piratecate. While the extra attack may not be unbalancing the game that much, I still must remind you of what you used to tell me when I was a little boy: Cheaters Never Win.

 

[Kugar]

Some help from my game

About a year ago I decided that there were some blatent rule 'misinterpretation' in my game. At that point I decided that it really bothered me - because the person who was 'good at min/maxing' as actually taunting and jeering the other players almost every game. The game also bogged down alot - especially when the player didn't like my rulings.

I thought I was being clever and asked for copies of all the Character Sheets and some goals for each player - so I could decide what magic and Prestige classes I would make available and check everyone's math. While I had the sheets I photocopied them, red penciled mistakes and sticky noted possible remedies.

It was a band-aid solution and eventually I lost the player because I 'singled' him out and wouldn't 'give him a break' Now he plays a Were-tiger monk and/or a Chittnea(sp?) Curst rogue in another campaign and still ends up mad after half the sessions. It's a shame when you don't smile after a sessesion.

My advice is to run the game the way you think is most fair and realize that some players will never agree with you. Give them a fun, interactive and challenging world and eventually you will have the group you want - it just might not be with the people you play with now.

Kugar

 

[trimeulose]

he's not power gaming.

Power gaming is making a character that uses his abilities to the fullest. An eleven wizard is an example of this. The wizard is prof with lonsword or rapier +bows this makes the wizard class unbalanced slightly but by very little.

Another fine example of this is the human fighter/weapon master. Since he is human and a fighter, weapon master can be achieved with an exotic weapon in six levels. Give him a mercurial greatsword and watch out.

People complain about powergamers because they cant do anything about them except flat out deny them a race or class. The only way to get rid of a powergamed character is to start another game.

Cheaters and rules abusers are quite different. They "forget" rules that penalize them, and make up others so that they can have things that are way out of proportion compared to the other PCs and NPCs. The easiest way to deal with them is confrontation. Once they are shown that the rules say that they cant do action X or that they must do Action Y, they cuss and cuss and tell you that you are a bad DM (but they know there is nothing they can do about it). Just hold your ground and they'll shut up, if they don't then they can leave.

 

[Ancalagon]

Powergaming and cheating are not the same thing. For example, if the dwarf was using a halberd, improved trip attack, knockback and power attack in conjuntion, he would be power gaming (that is a nast combo folks) but not cheating.

The player is cheating, pure and simple. Don't let it happen. You should also get to know the core rules better. And don't accept new rules in the game until you got the core rules down.

Ancalagon