D&D 5E Player agency and Paladin oath.

[Maxperson]

You made a blanket statement about killing prisoners being unfair. The reality is that prisoners are killed all over the world and have been for thousands of years. What makes it fair or not is whether they deserve it.

Well, no. A lot of people feel murderers deserve death. Trying shooting one before the trial is over and see how that works out for you. Fair is getting a FAIR trial before possibly being put to death. Unfair is someone just shooting you.

The reality is that many prisoners all over the world have been unfairly put to death, whether they deserve it or not.

An outlaw... a person who’s crimes have rendered them outside the law. They aren’t made that way through no fault of their own. The punishment was always death.

None of which addresses fairness. Law or outlaw does not inherently address fairness. You have to look at the specific laws in question assess them for fairness. As an example of blatantly unfair laws, just look at the civil forfeiture laws.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yet they all (with the exception of Nazis I suppose) share one thing in common. They don't exist. They're imaginary creatures. They serve a role in the fiction, and that's all.

But I just piped in because I get tired of the whole going from orcs are evil to supporting genocide accusation. Other than that it's the same loop. Either orcs are people and dehumanizing them is wrong because dehumanizing people is wrong or orcs are not people and you can't dehumanize something that is not human. The rest is simply justification and fluff.

Have a good one.

Lol so you chimed in to crap on a conversation that you’re tired of? Useful!

 

[Oofta]

Lol so you chimed in to crap on a conversation that you’re tired of? Useful!

Well you just chime in to respond to every post of mine with the same argument. What's your point?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well you just chime in to respond to every post of mine with the same argument. What's your point?

You’ve never explained it. You’ve never engaged at all with my question. I ask it every thread because it’s frustrating to read the same thing in every thread.

Why do you respond to discussions about what the official books should say with defensiveness about your home game? No one went, “and everyone who uses orcs differently from how we are saying the core should be written is racist!”, and yet you continue, literally every time, to come in an get preemptively defensive as if someone has said that. Why?

 

[Oofta]

You’ve never explained it. You’ve never engaged at all with my question. I ask it every thread because it’s frustrating to read the same thing in every thread.

Why do you respond to discussions about what the official books should say with defensiveness about your home game? No one went, “and everyone who uses orcs differently from how we are saying the core should be written is racist!”, and yet you continue, literally every time, to come in an get preemptively defensive as if someone has said that. Why?

Either orcs are people or they are not. They're not real so either can be true. If orcs are people, dehumanizing them is wrong. If they are not people then you can't dehumanize something that was never human in the first place.

You seem to assume that orcs have free will to the same extent as humans. I don't.

I was responding to a post that stated that orcs are people. Period, end of story. Oh, and genocide is wrong. The former is up to the DM and campaign, the latter is a straw man.

 

[TheSword]

Well, no. A lot of people feel murderers deserve death. Trying shooting one before the trial is over and see how that works out for you. Fair is getting a FAIR trial before possibly being put to death. Unfair is someone just shooting you.

The reality is that many prisoners all over the world have been unfairly put to death, whether they deserve it or not.


None of which addresses fairness. Law or outlaw does not inherently address fairness. You have to look at the specific laws in question assess them for fairness. As an example of blatantly unfair laws, just look at the civil forfeiture laws.

If you want to look at a quasi-medieval fantasy society through a modern 20th C lens of then that is fine. Just be aware that the film, TV, and literature that currently inspires D&D doesn’t necessarily do that.

As a result many DMs and players don’t want to run something they feel is so anachronistic.

 

[auburn2]

Even a vampire that acts in a good way is an abomination created by profane magic, a walking corpse with a will. It’s absolute nonsense to compare that case to murdering living prisoners.

1. Yes. But our games also don’t make any moral distinction between goblins and halflings or humans. If we are fighting them there is a reason, and how we treat them will depend on that reason, and on their conduct. If the bandits took shots at downed characters, they’re dead. If they fought reasonably, we will stabilized them, and usually negotiate some manner of deal with them. Ie, “we aren’t interested in murder or in seeing your face behind a bandit’s mask again. Give us a third option.”

Many if not most vampires are created unwillingly by other vampires. If being evil is not a reason to kill them, then why is the fact they were "created" through something other than live birth a reason? They are sentient beings.

I could agree with this if we were talking about zombies or skeletons or other mindless undead, but I think this logic runs dry on Vampires ... or liches for that matter.

If the bandits took shots at downed characters "they are dead" .... so then there is no imperitive that you can't kill them? What if they didn't take shots so you revive them and they say - "nope we are going to rape, burn and pillage as soon as you let us go" ... or better yet they say "we are going to turn a new leaf and be good bandits from now on" but your insight check indicates they are lying. Are you duty bound then to break off the quest and bring them to the authorities in a city 500 miles away?

These are tough moral questions and that is the point and why such arbitrary absolutes are not viable, especially in a game where Vampires and Devils walk the earth, much of the rules and gameplay are centered on killing people and many abilities are specifically to enable you to do it more effectively.

 

[Helldritch]

1) Either orcs are people or they are not. They're not real so either can be true. If orcs are people, dehumanizing them is wrong. If they are not people then you can't dehumanize something that was never human in the first place.

2) You seem to assume that orcs have free will to the same extent as humans. I don't.

3) I was responding to a post that stated that orcs are people. Period, end of story. Oh, and genocide is wrong. The former is up to the DM and campaign, the latter is a straw man.

1) How can you dehumanize something that does not exist? How can you dehumanize something that is not human and is a pure product of your imagination? The only answer is: "You can't!". On this, I am fully on your side.

2) Me neither. In my previous campaign Orcs had no say in their actions because they were nothing more than mortal demons. Now we are playing Dragonheist and this adventure is set in the realm. In this world, orcs can be considered to have a choice. Yet their default alignment is Evil. Just as the MM states. I can always make an exception if it suits the plot or my fancy. But if a particular orc is out of the norm for his race, I will make it pretty much obvious.

3) Some will do their best to use strawman. It is unfortunate that they do not try to see what is done in other campaign. They hang on their strawman. A game is a game. It has no bearing on the real world. Unless it is football. People can kill for football...

 

[Doug McCrae]

In 1974 OD&D orcs don't have a fixed alignment. Like ogres and minotaurs, they can be Neutral or Chaotic. Goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, gnolls, and trolls are always Chaotic tho.

 

[Weiley31]

Just make the paladin turn to Oath of Vengeance. Haha.

And then, the BBEGs are the CN/CE party members, so the Paladin has to go around, action movie style, hunting them down to bring them to justice after they left the Paladin of Devotion for dead after the whole Giant prisoner incident.

Potential Sidekicks include the Giant's brother, the Paladin Mount, the Warlock, a Succubus with a heart of gold, and the Bartender.