D&D 5E Player agency and Paladin oath.

[doctorbadwolf]

Many D&D worlds - at least the mundane non-magical bits - are nominally based on Europe of varying ages, from Greco-Roman times to the Renaissance; and (as keeps arising in other threads) this puts a whole different spin on how a lot of things work in society. Trying to apply or overlay 21st-century rules, morals, ethics, politics, etc. just doesn't work well.

Actually it works extremely well, but that is tangential to the point.

Many D&D worlds have completely different legal systems from any given part of Europe in the thousand years or so of the Middle Ages. Trying to make authoritative declarations about what The Law is in D&D is just blatantly ridiculous. Any given law being referenced is just one part of the Middle Ages, in one region, at best, and such laws are useful only as vague inspirations.

No published 5e setting has the same laws as 14th century England, Or 10th Century France, or whatever, nor do the vast majority of home games, which aren’t being run by experts in medieval law of a given time and place.

 

[TheSword]

So punish the paladin's player for being only one to even remotely play his character properly (well from the OP the warlocks player wasn't to bad either, but the point stands)?

Punish the party for not discussing this at character creation and coming up with a coherent party.

Fighters are ace... it’s not punishment to play one.

 

[TheSword]

They might care. If the locals are so unwilling to help subdue the criminals that out-of-town adventurers are needed its probably because there are social ties between those being subdued and the locals. Realistically, unless a gang formed out of the remnants of a foreign mercenary band after a war or something, your garden variety bandit probably is a local and probably has friends and family in the area.

Now D&D style bandits, who are always some mysterious group with no social ties who sprung out of the aether, I'm sure the locals don't mind you killing.



Trials were common enough. The quarterly sessions you are thinking of would be the higher courts for when someone of quality was tried for murder. A medieval English Shire, for example, had several subdivisions with Hundred Courts convening once or twice monthly and had authority to handle criminal matters.

But trials are for people trying to live peacefully within the society. At the point where bandits are being hunted down by adventurers they have doubtlessly ignored a court summons and been declared as "outlaws" meaning people outside the protection of the law whom any person may legally kill.

Hundred Courts generally dealt with fines - though Anglo-saxons made almost everything about fines. Where there’s blame, there’s a claim.

Serious cases were held at the Sheriffs Tourn which was usually twice a year. Though the legal system changed a lot over the centuries.

Totally agree about the social contacts with bandits. Personally I think a much more effective way of stopping murder hobo is to make it clear the people they kill, are people will families, hopes and ideals.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Actually it works extremely well, but that is tangential to the point.

Many D&D worlds have completely different legal systems from any given part of Europe in the thousand years or so of the Middle Ages. Trying to make authoritative declarations about what The Law is in D&D is just blatantly ridiculous. Any given law being referenced is just one part of the Middle Ages, in one region, at best, and such laws are useful only as vague inspirations.

No published 5e setting has the same laws as 14th century England, Or 10th Century France, or whatever, nor do the vast majority of home games, which aren’t being run by experts in medieval law of a given time and place.

What do you propose we base the assumed laws of a setting on, instead? Surely we shouldn't expect DMs to provide their world's legal framework every time they discuss their setting.

 

[TheSword]

DnD worlds aren't literal Medieval Europe.

Tell us something we don’t know.

Though I’m not claiming you need your world to be an accurate representation of medieval law, just giving examples of where 20C assumptions don’t match reality.

What I’m saying is, there’s no need for horror at killing criminals. We can’t assume there is a fair and rigorous legal process that can practically deal with things. Or that characters should be punished with the revulsion of society for not sticking to a legal system that doesn’t exist.

Most adventurers are not The Town Watch. They’re who people go to when there is no Watch, or when the Watch can’t handle it.

 

[Mort]

Punish the party for not discussing this at character creation and coming up with a coherent party.

A session 0 to get a coherent party is always a good idea - but it's mostly on the DM to get that done. If the DM didn't set a session 0 and/or didn't otherwise ensure /encourage a coherent party - don't punish the group as a result.

Talking to them and trying to get a solution where everyone is more in tune - that's not a bad idea.

Fighters are ace... it’s not punishment to play one.

It is absolutely a punishment to force a player to play something they don't want - especially when it's the other players seemingly causing an issue.

 

[Flamestrike]

Killing a prisoner, who could reasonably be expected to bring harm to innocents after that, or to attack the party again, doesn't violate the oath.

Yes it clearly does violate the oath.

Murdering a defenceless prisoner violates at least three of the tenets in 'Show mercy to your foes', 'cause the least amount of harm', and 'protect those entrusted to your care.'

 

[Horwath]

Just make the paladin turn to Oath of Vengeance. Haha.

 

[Bagpuss]

The Paladin's church sponsored the quest, the others answered the flyers to help find the cure for the good of the city and its inhabitants .... as well as the reward.

Ah well then perhaps they need reminding to start being a bit more lawful as they are officially acting on behalf of the church. Seems the Paladin isn't the problem here, it's the lying backstabbers.

 

[Not a Hobbit]

They were brought together for the quest they are on, which is a quest to secure certain ingredients and items to help cure a city of a plague (or if you would prefer pandemic). The Paladin's church sponsored the quest, the others answered the flyers to help find the cure for the good of the city and its inhabitants .... as well as the reward.

Church leader talks to paladin in a Dream spell.
"How's it going with the quest?"
Paladin proceeds to tell church leader about all that the other members of the party have done.
"Woah, that's horrible. Tell them that their contract is void and that they should leave at once. We'll send out a new group to assist you."
DM has CN party members leave and makes the players of said party members roll up new characters.

Problem solved and keeps continuity with the story.