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5E Player character lv 10 wizard who is also smart player how to challenge?

Nightbeat84

Explorer
Good day everyone
looking for how other DM's challenge high level wizard players but not screw them over. So far all I've come up with is having enemy casters that counterspell hes spells when they can but I feel like its cheesy. I've talked to the player about enemy spell casters with counterspell he seems fine with it but i dont like it some times it comes down to big counterspell war between him and the npc. Id like having big brutes with abilities rather then give them spellcasting but wizards have access to spells that complete negate anything they can do such as, polymorph,wall of force, banishment are few examples. Not sure how to challenge the party. Also disclosure I'm terrible at controlling npc spellcasters. Thoughts or suggestions are welcome
I suppose little more detail might shed some light on hes tactics. Also I'm a newer DM I'm still trying to learn encounter building. If I have a bunch of minions he cast greater invisibility then fire balls from a distance or wall of fire depending on the grouping of the enemies. If I have 1 big monster I fear he will banish, polymorph,wall of force it. Then walk on throught to a safe distance. I might have 1 or 2 combat encounters per seassion which are 4hrs long real time. I think my fear of not having anything threatening enough I over compensate. Some of the fights the party attempts to long rest right after the fight. I have not been keeping track of how many encounters per day which I will now I think.
 
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Krachek

Adventurer
Well if it's a brute it's a big bag of hit points they dont really have any abilities to negate the fight so easy enough to set up for them? If that answers your question?
Wizards are already struggling with damage resistance, various immunities, spell resistance, legendary resistance. you can choose to add often counterspell to the list, but basically they have enough problems to solve to feel some challenge.
 

Nightbeat84

Explorer
Wizards are already struggling with damage resistance, various immunities, spell resistance, legendary resistance. you can choose to add often counterspell to the list, but basically they have enough problems to solve to feel some challenge.
Wall of force cant really be resisted it just happens. Is there any other spells similar to it I'm kinda concerned in that fashion?
 

Most shutdown spells require saves. Look at monsters that are proficient in some saves, or have Legendary saves.

Level 5 spells are powerful, but a level 10 wizard can only cast a max of 3 a day. You should be aiming for between 6-8 encounters between Long rests.

Many powerful spells require concentration, so the wizard can't use them at the same time, and if they are hurt, the spell can break.

Also bear in mind that those three spells you mention don't take out an opponent permanently, they're just delaying tactics. (Apart from banish against an outsider.) Polymorph breaks if the form loses its hit points or if the wizard loses concentration for example.

Do you have any more details about what the wizard is doing?
 

Krachek

Adventurer
Wall of force cant really be resisted it just happens. Is there any other spells similar to it I'm kinda concerned in that fashion?
He is a level 10 wizard, yes he can do amazing things, what's the point to have wall of force if he get counterspell each time?
 


tommybahama

Explorer
Well if it's a brute it's a big bag of hit points they dont really have any abilities to negate the fight so easy enough to set up for them? If that answers your question?
I play an unstoppable battlemaster/forge cleric. In the last battle we were attacked by five babau demons. I got hit with Heat Metal and Weakening Gaze until I inevitably failed my constitution saves. In another fight I was possessed by a ghost and was forced to attack my own party. I think he means stuff like that.
 

Encounters with 3+ strong'ish enemies are tricky for a caster. He can perhaps lock down one of them for a time but not all, and pure damage spells tend to be a waste at higher levels if you can't get multiple enemies in a blast.
 

Wall of force cant really be resisted it just happens. Is there any other spells similar to it I'm kinda concerned in that fashion?
Wall of force only lasts for 10 minutes and the wizard needs to maintain concentration the entire time. That means no other concentration spells to use on the rest of the encounter, and if any of the other opponents hit them, there is a chance that the spell fill fail.

The wizard should not be able to use it every encounter. What is happening in the other encounters in the day?
 

aco175

Hero
A forcecage should do the trick. A bit of a hack and maybe needs more of a de-buff to make it feel like you are not picking on a player. You can always give the PC one on a scroll to even things out later.

Another thought is to challenge him out of combat. Some things like clues to defeat a bad guy or a puzzle to get through may make the smart player feel more engaged.
 

Nightbeat84

Explorer
sorry was using my phone move the post to the op don't know if it would notify anyone if I edit my original
 
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Nightbeat84

Explorer
He is a level 10 wizard, yes he can do amazing things, what's the point to have wall of force if he get counterspell each time?
I rather not counter spell he's wall of force but I don't really want him to completely negate the entire encounter
 

Nightbeat84

Explorer
Most shutdown spells require saves. Look at monsters that are proficient in some saves, or have Legendary saves.

Level 5 spells are powerful, but a level 10 wizard can only cast a max of 3 a day. You should be aiming for between 6-8 encounters between Long rests.

Many powerful spells require concentration, so the wizard can't use them at the same time, and if they are hurt, the spell can break.

Also bear in mind that those three spells you mention don't take out an opponent permanently, they're just delaying tactics. (Apart from banish against an outsider.) Polymorph breaks if the form loses its hit points or if the wizard loses concentration for example.

Do you have any more details about what the wizard is doing?
I suppose little more detail might shed some light on hes tactics. Also I'm a newer DM I'm still trying to learn encounter building. If I have a bunch of minions he cast greater invisibility then fire balls from a distance or wall of fire depending on the grouping of the enemies. If I have 1 big monster I fear he will banish, polymorph,wall of force it. Then walk on throught to a safe distance. I might have 1 or 2 combat encounters per seassion which are 4hrs long real time. I think my fear of not having anything threatening enough I over compensate. Some of the fights the party attempts to long rest right after the fight. I have not been keeping track of how many encounters per day which I will now I think.
 

Nightbeat84

Explorer
Wall of force only lasts for 10 minutes and the wizard needs to maintain concentration the entire time. That means no other concentration spells to use on the rest of the encounter, and if any of the other opponents hit them, there is a chance that the spell fill fail.

The wizard should not be able to use it every encounter. What is happening in the other encounters in the day?
I suppose little more detail might shed some light on hes tactics. Also I'm a newer DM I'm still trying to learn encounter building. If I have a bunch of minions he cast greater invisibility then fire balls from a distance or wall of fire depending on the grouping of the enemies. If I have 1 big monster I fear he will banish, polymorph,wall of force it. Then walk on throught to a safe distance. I might have 1 or 2 combat encounters per seassion which are 4hrs long real time. I think my fear of not having anything threatening enough I over compensate. Some of the fights the party attempts to long rest right after the fight. I have not been keeping track of how many encounters per day which I will now I think.
 

Nightbeat84

Explorer
Encounters with 3+ strong'ish enemies are tricky for a caster. He can perhaps lock down one of them for a time but not all, and pure damage spells tend to be a waste at higher levels if you can't get multiple enemies in a blast.
suppose I have to change my tactics and have a few strong NPC's instead of punch of weak swarming NPC's
 

Nightbeat84

Explorer
Wizards are already struggling with damage resistance, various immunities, spell resistance, legendary resistance. you can choose to add often counterspell to the list, but basically they have enough problems to solve to feel some challenge.
I think I need to change my tactics and have more smaller encounters I have a hard time gauging what to throw at them without overtaxing them that they do not continue to adventure and try to long rest after every fight. I think I will review the encounter building in the DMG. I don't really fully understand encounter building but I suppose its one of those things you get better at with time and experience?
 

Nightbeat84

Explorer
little more info party composition is, Wizard, gloom stalker ranger/ assassin rogue, barbarian, eldritch fighter/ 1 level forge cleric with 24-25 ac I think, monk
 

I suppose little more detail might shed some light on hes tactics. Also I'm a newer DM I'm still trying to learn encounter building. If I have a bunch of minions he cast greater invisibility then fire balls from a distance or wall of fire depending on the grouping of the enemies. If I have 1 big monster I fear he will banish, polymorph,wall of force it. Then walk on throught to a safe distance. I might have 1 or 2 combat encounters per seassion which are 4hrs long real time. I think my fear of not having anything threatening enough I over compensate. Some of the fights the party attempts to long rest right after the fight. I have not been keeping track of how many encounters per day which I will now I think.
The best advice I can give you then is to keep track of encounters and rests.
5e is balanced on the basis of averaging out at 6 to 8 encounters between Long Rests, with two Short rests in that day. If the party can Long Rest after only three encounters or at the end of every session then that not only throws off the encounter guidelines, it also massively boosts the spellcasters compared to the other characters.

Introduce some time pressure if you can so the party can't just wait a day after each encounter (you can only benefit from one log rest per day.) Or use a different long rest timescale option from the DMG.

Monsters can try to hide, spread out so they're not in fireball formation. Have varied encounters with some archers, some melee combatants, and some spellcasters.

If the Wizard force walls an enemy, then walks off, the force wall disappears after 10 minutes, and the monster is still there. Presumably it had a reason to attack the party, so it is likely to start tracking them down.
 

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