Player, DM, or PC call? (longish)

Sounds like an out-of-game knowledge problem to me.

In-game, did this character profess to be an ace rogue, skilled at all things sneaky? Or did he profess to be more of a help at dealing with officials and such (diplomacy)?

If the letter, there should be no complaint. He is filling a much-needed niche of a non-combatant PC who does not scout. He is skills-heavy, but not in Disbale Device, which he admitted at teh first trap.

The players' inability to change direction when they realized that traps would be a serious problem is not his fault.

Really, it sound like a bunch of whining to me. The rogue in question did just what he was capable of doing. It is not the player's fault that the group thought he was some sort of ace-number-one rogue.
 

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I don't see how this is the rogue's fault (or the rogue player's fault.) Docking him XP is wrong and will only cause resentment within your group.
They know I use traps, and he knew he didn't have Disable Device.

Is this player or character knowledge? Was the decision to leave the other rogue ebhing player or character knowledge.

Also, is he perhaps playing a CHA based rogue so as not to step on the other player/PC's toes?


As for having them play it out in character, that is fine...probably the best way to handle it. You just need to ensure that peopel on't bring their out of character frustration and blend it with their character's decisions. All said and done, every character (perhaps player too) made some bad assumptions. Even after finding out the truth, they decided to proceed, knowing the risk.
 

In one of my games (Olgar Shiverstone as DM), there are XP penalties given for metagaming, as well as bonuses for good roleplaying. Sounds to me like everyone but the rogue player deserves a metagaming XP penalty.

The players decided not to bring along the missing player's rogue character. That is okay, and is the kind of decision that is made all the time by gaming groups.

The players apparently assumed that because it says "Rogue" at the top of one player's character sheet, his character would be able to pick up the trap-handling chores. The Player Characters had no reason to think this, they only knew the PC in question as an intelligent, charismatic guy who could land a sneak attack at times. If they were worried about someone taking care of traps, the PCs should have asked the INT/CHA rogue, in character, if he knew how to handle traps. Or better yet, the PCs should have simply said "If Milo can't go, who can handle traps?" This would give all characters, including the cleric, the chance to suggest a way to handle any traps.

Sounds to me like your "powergamer extrodinaire" finally decided to role play, and now he is getting penalized for it.

I would also warn to players that if their characters continue to use metagame knowledge to punish the INT/CHA rogue, further XP penalties will be assessed.

Dang, by staying in character the poor guy got his girlfriend's character killed. Maybe an roleplaying bonus is due. In fact, even if they character had been roleplayed as a sneaky, liar type, and had told the others that he could disarm traps, I would not penalize the character in XP, but would allow his fellow PCs to use that knowledge against him in game.

Edit: Several others mentioned the metagaming issue while I was typing my lengthy post.

Also, forgot to mention the idea of the XP penalty for the rogue not contributing. I agree with the others who have said he should not be penalized for the circumstances. If his main attack is his SA, and they were facing undead, how effective did you expect him to be? Do you penalize the other PCs when the group has diplomatic encounters that the CHA rogue is able to resolve without them contributing anything?
 
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ZSutherland wrote: It's my groups off week (second in a row due to scheduling stuff), but that gives both my players and myself time to think about something that happened at the end of the last game.
Based on your explanation of events, I'd say that it should be handled in-character. All rogues are not sneak-thieves, scouts and trap experts. That said, it also sounds like you and possibly your core 4 players have personal issues with the power-gamer and his girlfriend. Perhaps those personal issues are affecting your campaign negatively, causing you to overreact and sublimate the real issue. Yes, I'm speaking from personal experience.
 

Artoomis said:
Sounds like an out-of-game knowledge problem to me.

In-game, did this character profess to be an ace rogue, skilled at all things sneaky? Or did he profess to be more of a help at dealing with officials and such (diplomacy)?

If the letter, there should be no complaint. He is filling a much-needed niche of a non-combatant PC who does not scout. He is skills-heavy, but not in Disbale Device, which he admitted at teh first trap.

The players' inability to change direction when they realized that traps would be a serious problem is not his fault.

Really, it sound like a bunch of whining to me. The rogue in question did just what he was capable of doing. It is not the player's fault that the group thought he was some sort of ace-number-one rogue.

I have to agree fully with Artoomis here. It sounds an awful lot to me like player whining. They are obviously still thinking in the mindset that rogue=thief=trap finder and that clearly isn't true any more. It really hasn't been since 1st edition days. Their inability to make up for it is their problem.

If I were you, I wouldn't take sides. I wouldn't dock the rogue XPs for anything. It sounds to me like he role-played his character effectively. I would also definitely tell the players that any repercussions MUST happen in game or they will not be welcome at the table until they make amends.
I'd even consider telling the players to lighten up. Since when are good halfling clerics THAT vindictive? Sheesh!
 

I have many problems with this.

First, has the character ever given any hint that he can disable traps? If not, than the party had no reason to assume he could. They can't see "rogue" tattooed on his forhead, after all. And even if they could, as others have said, there are other ways to play a rogue than the "Disable traps" kind. Heck, I've played rogues that don't have any points in disable device either. I didn't go around telling people that, though, anymore than the fighter would go around saying "I have no ranks in disable device!".

Second, how is the rogue being any more cowardly than the rest of the party? The party threatened the rogue to open a door THE ENTIRE PARTY knew was trapped by this point. None of them were willing to do it, so they bullied him into doing something they knew was dangerous. And then it's any wonder that the rogue doesn't want to take point?

I don't see how you can blame him for the cleric falling through a pit-trap after that, and how the dwarf got seperated is still too hazy to see how the rogue got blamed for that...

But this...

ZSutherland said:
(I do admit I deducted a bit of the rogues exp because he did nothing valuable since all the monsters except the chaos beasts were undead and the chaos beasts are immune to criticals so no SA so he effectively contributed nothing at all)

Did he still fight at all? If so, you shouldn't be docking his XP. He contributed as much as he could. You're the one who put stuff he couldn't fight very well there.
 

Further, IMO, the actions (And the thought of hold person/mark of justicing so that they can order him around... Near slavery!) of the cleric are at best slightly and IMO grossly out of line for a NG cleric of anything, much less Yondalla.
 

Mark,

I appreciate the responses. You did make a few incorrect assumptions, but I think that's my fault. I do actually have some personal feelings on the matter (which you insightfully pointed out), but I tried to leave them out of my description of the problem in an attempt to get unbiased responses. Since I failed to omit them entirely, we'll just spill them and see what they add to the discussion.

The player in question left the gaming group last time on good terms (school was just getting the better of him and he'd just lost his job) with us, but afterwards did a few things having nothing to do with the game that gravely offended myself, the player of the cleric (my fiance), and the player of the wizard. These actions really irked the dwarf's player, but as I said he's the group's peacemaker so "really irked" is pretty severe for him. We haven't spoken to him much since, and then they just showed up at the game the first night of the campaign. No calling to say they were coming or anything. They got their first, and we play at the dwarf player's house, so of course, he wasn't going to turn them away, and I didn't feel it would be kosher refusing to play with them at that point. Angry as I had been several months ago, I'm a forgive person (though not much of a forgetter) and decided to play it out and see if he behaved himself. On the whole, he has behaved, but a few key behaviors stick out at me.

1. The character he chose to make is very unusual for him (which actually delighted me at first) since he usually makes a munchkin cleric. As a side note, he typically refuses to heal the party in the role of cleric, saving all his spells for himself until he knows its safe (like just before they rest for the night). Back on topic, while he's made a couple of good skill uses that have helped out and been a helpful brainstormer (the player is rather bright), his character is really rather hopeless. Since they weren't there for the initial campaign discussion, I told them what we'd decided to do and that they should make capable characters they could have fun with since we would be playing w/o kid gloves. Since I know he can be a munchkin, and I know I told him to make a capable character, I'm rather baffled by his characters total lack of utility.

2. He's twice now waited until I'd got started with the session and then piped up, interrupting, to ask if he could DM instead. The first time, I looked around the table at everyone and said, "Ask them." They turned him down (we've played in his games before, and they're not much fun). The second time, I said, "Do you have anything planned?" "No, I'll just make something up." He says this to me as I'm looking at the 6 pages of maps & notes I've got ready for the evening. This may sound petty, but I've known this guy for over a decade and he's never acted like this.

3. Since I decided to have the PCs handle this themselves, I kept the initial post about things that happened in game. However, when the PCs reached the first trap and he said he couldn't disarm it, they asked why, he fessed up, and they said, why didn't you tell us before we got down here? He says ooc, "Well, I didn't want to have to split treasure and exp with **** (the absent player)." I agree they should have turned around at this point, and I pointed out that making their way through a trap laden dungeon w/o a traps expert would prove difficult, but whatever... This statement however, puts a burr up my butt something serious. It's absolute meta-game thinking.

4. While once very prompt players, his gf and he (they ride together) have started arriving very late (sometimes by over 2 hours). I'm stuck either holding up the game for them stopping right in the middle and catching them up. They're never apologetic about their tardiness.

To the people who suggested I shouldn't have docked any exp from him. I didn't dock it out of his encounter exp. I give bonus exp based on roleplaying your character and "story" exp, how helpful you were in progressing the plot. It's an ad hoc catagory and varies from player to player. I add/subtract points from spellcaster dependent on how they prepared and used their spells, from fighters based on tactics and such, and from the rogues on whether they lived up to their job (would have awarded him full points on this if he'd said "Let's take Milo cuz I'm not much for traps." Just as I've awarded him bonuses in the past for judicious use of gather information and diplomacy.) The whole bonus doesn't come out to much, so he lost maybe 200 points, and he got full exp for contributing to encounters (including the traps)

As for how they know he's a rogue, he admitted to them that the local theives guild tried to recruit him before, so they know that much. Their knowledge that I use traps is both IC and OOC.

Z
 

Below is my original response, but while I was posting you posted your latest message (above), so never mind :-)

I'm with you 100%, and think you are handling things very fairly given the circumstances.

Skaros

ZSutherland said:
(I do admit I deducted a bit of the rogues exp because he did nothing valuable since all the monsters except the chaos beasts were undead and the chaos beasts are immune to criticals so no SA so he effectively contributed nothing at all)

You sound like a thoughtful and good DM, so this isn't a criticism as much as a question.

Do you corresponding give him roleplay exp rewards in the portions of the game where he shines...or perhaps penalize the exp of the more combat oriented members when a session is spent in the city, and they are less effective?

It seems unfair to penalize someone exp because they stayed true to their character, and were faced with difficulties that were planned in such a way as to render their only good combat abilities useless :-)

Sounds like, as someone else said, this guy is roleplaying for once, and being penalized for it on several levels...by the players definitely. By the DM, probably not considering how fair most of your description is.

Skaros
 
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ZSutherland said:
As for how they know he's a rogue, he admitted to them that the local theives guild tried to recruit him before, so they know that much. Their knowledge that I use traps is both IC and OOC.

Z

Still not enough. He could be a master pickpocket, a master of disguise, a master of deception, a master forger...
 

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