Player ineptness...

[lazerfish]

What do you do if you're DMing for players who are just... well, bad at the game? The group I'm speaking of consists of two veterans, two players with intermediate experience and one brand new player. It was their first game of Fourth Edition. I've played with most of them many times before and I've always come up against some problems with encounter balance. It took me until this most recent time to realize the problem:

They are bad.

In order for me to ensure that an encounter doesn't take two hours, I need to dumb it down so much that I might as well not have them fight anything. They have zero concept of tactics and will use stupid and repetitive attacks in a horribly boring attempt to grind monsters down, all the while freaking out if they take more than four points of damage and reacting in a way that just makes it worse for them.

Now, I've tried everything with this group. I've helped them along every step of making their characters, given them a good primer of the 4e rules and pointed out better options when they're available. I cut down monster numbers and fudge rolls in their favor, but when a group of five can't handle six level-appropriate minions, then there's something wrong. I first thought it may have just been the new edition, but it came to me later that this is a problem they've had for a while. Two of them seem to be willing to learn and at least try, but the others are so stubborn (or thick-headed) that any advice or help I try to give just bounces off.

Because of these difficulties, the encounters become tedious and incredibly long, lasting many more rounds than they should have. We are all getting very frustrated, and it's really on me to figure out how to handle this.

Please, what should I do here?

 

[shilsen]

Talk to them. Explain why you're having an issue with the game and perhaps suggest that you can run them through some sample combats for practice. Explain that if they do get more tactically proficient, the combats will run faster and be more enjoyable for all concerned and they won't be as frustrated. Since it seems like at least a couple of players are on your side where it comes to wanting to learn to be more effective, it should be easier to persuade the others to go along with this. And then run a few combats for them, letting them handle first handle each fight as they would and then running the same thing but this time with some serious hand-holding and explanation of what would be good tactics and why.

 

[DandD]

Ask them if they're interested in having fights at all.
I mean, do they enjoy the idea of having their characters battle monsters, or would they rather play other stuff, like wildness survival and intrigues (although these types of adventures also do have some minor combat as well).

 

[Kraydak]

All I can say, without more information, is that your problem almost certainly isn't purely player ineptness.

5 PCs cannot lose to 6 level appropriate minions unless they engage in PvP activity. So the questions become:
a) how did the opposition differ from 6 level appropriate minions?
b) why did you refer to the opposition as such?

 

[lazerfish]

Let me clarify: They did not lose to the minions. Rather, the battle took them an hour to finish (they faced two goblin blackblades as well, but they ran away two and three rounds in).

They faced six level 3 minions. They were set to face four more, but I cut them in the interest of time once I saw how poorly they were faring.

The point is that this is not an isolated incident. This group has had this problem for as long as I've been playing (and DMing) with them.

I'll try and talk to the players, but the problem ones are loathe to take advice. I'm not going to cut combat encounters from the game: they're the centerpiece of D and D. The fact is that a few of them are partial to puzzles, but if they can't think their way through a simple encounter, then they're not going to make it to any.

 

[twilsemail]

How many rounds is the combat lasting? When I played my first game of 4e, with a group of veteran D&D players, it took us probably an hour and a half. Our encounter was similar to yours (elves not goblins, but mechanically similar). It could be that they need to learn the rules a bit more and learn their characters.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...fective-forked-thread-prevent-grindspace.html

THis thread, and the one if forked from, may help you and your players out in cutting down the ammount of time each encounter takes. One my group and I learned our roles and our characters, things went much more smoothly for us. It may be the same for you.

 

[DracoSuave]

One possibility is that they simply don't understand the new options they have, so they are stuck in the 1/2ed mentalities.

So how do you fix that?

You unload on them. Create an encounter that's design to have the monster's showcase what players can do. Let them unleash the beast on the players, capturing them at the end if the players don't adapt. When the players cry, just say 'Dudes, you had all these options yourselves. I figured you guys would actually use your abilities. See, look here, and here... oh and check this out!'

My group was new to 4e but I actually spend a bit of time with each player so they can maximise what they want to do, and hinting to them tactics their characters can pull off.

The first time they took more than 5 damage (i.e. the first time they took damage) they winced a lot, but they understood that 4e and previous edition damage scales were completely different, and they adjusted immediately. Your players need to do the same.

 

[jSpengler]

You unload on them. Create an encounter that's design to have the monster's showcase what players can do. Let them unleash the beast on the players, capturing them at the end if the players don't adapt. When the players cry, just say 'Dudes, you had all these options yourselves. I figured you guys would actually use your abilities. See, look here, and here... oh and check this out!'

This works! I was DM'ing the first 4E game our group played and we were all still adjusting to the dynamics of 4E combat. I, as a DM, truly didn't get the jist of combat in the new edition until I created a truly evil and synergistic encounter that was well above the suggested XP a mount for the party. I proceeded to mess some PC's up. They moaned and groaned for a few rounds until the party started working together and using their abilities in the best ways possible out of sheer survival instinct. Tactics were born out of necessity. The warlord gave combat advantage to the rogue, who was covered by the fighter, who was being healed by the cleric, while the warlock zipped in and out of combat so fast I just couldn't keep up.

It was a great fight, even though just two rounds into combat everyone (myself included) thought it was going to be a TPK. This was the moment that everything "clicked".

 

[MichaelSomething]

I agree with DracoSuave and jSpendgler on this one. You're gonna have to take off the kids gloves and get serious.

Don't be afraid to kill your party if that's what it takes.

 

[Shroomy]

I'm not sure wiping the floor with them will work out very well, especially if you have multiple problem players who won't take advice, have no sense of tactics, and react badly to adversity (not to mention if this is an ongoing problem predating your first 4e game). Given your description of the group, I'm not even sure talking to them would be very productive. My thoughts are that if you want to play 4e, you'll probably want to get yourself a new group. If you want to continue playing with this group, you will probably want to find another game to play; this is probably the best option, since your players don't seem to be engaged, to say the least, with D&D.