Player's build is to strong?

[youspoonybard]

I think the problem with taking multiple prestige classes isn't a lack of focus - it's a lack of what the player actually wants.

If a player has to dip into multiple prestige classes to achieve his character, I'd recommend a better way of doing it - campaign-specific prestige classes. Sometimes the change can be slight (for example, my current character is working up to the Dervish prestige class, and it's modified very slightly to better benefit kamas instead of scimitars). I don't think of it as a min-maxing decision; it's that my character dual-wields kamas, and would advance their training along that path. Another time I made a 5 level class for a player's Dragon Disciple that bettered their natural attacks and breath weapon, because going back to fighter just seemed so wrong : ). My experience with this is it makes the character much more of an individual, a guy who has walked off the common path and will achieve his goals his own way.

Existing prestige classes give you a rought idea of what is acceptable to give, and when, and at what cost. Remember that the classes themselves, as Hyp pointed out, are metagame terms. If I see my character as a strange guy, like a Sorceror who can Turn Undead or something, I think a reasonable player and a reasonable DM should be able to get together and design such a character build that is strong but not overpowering, that is fun and challengeable.

So instead of doing things like limiting the number of Prestige classes, or say that you must complete one before moving on to another, I like making ones for my campaign that make everyone happy.

(Although I *DO* hate those Ur-Priest mechanics. U.G.H.)

 

[MoonZar]

I think the problem with taking multiple prestige classes isn't a lack of focus - it's a lack of what the player actually wants.

If a player has to dip into multiple prestige classes to achieve his character, I'd recommend a better way of doing it - campaign-specific prestige classes. Sometimes the change can be slight (for example, my current character is working up to the Dervish prestige class, and it's modified very slightly to better benefit kamas instead of scimitars). I don't think of it as a min-maxing decision; it's that my character dual-wields kamas, and would advance their training along that path. Another time I made a 5 level class for a player's Dragon Disciple that bettered their natural attacks and breath weapon, because going back to fighter just seemed so wrong : ).

Existing prestige classes give you a rought idea of what is acceptable to give, and when. Remember that the classes themselves, as Hyp pointed out, are metagame terms. I think a reasonable player and a reasonable DM should be able to get together and plan a character build that is strong but not overpowering, that is fun and challengeable.

So instead of doing things like limiting the number of Prestige classes, or say that you must complete one before moving on to another, I like making ones for my campaign that make everyone happy.

(Although I *DO* hate those Ur-Priest mechanics. U.G.H.)

Prestige Class are a great tool to customize your campaign world and your need. I think they are wonderful for this particular goal. I do the same for my world, i customize prestige class and create new one.

 

[Prism]

When DMing I don't worry too much what the players want to do with their characters as long as they are all happy. This means that one character generally shouldn't outshine the others and as long as that doesn't happen they can take as many classes or PrC's as they want to achieve their desired character. I would prefer to focus my time on creating my part of the game than dictating my views on how the game should be played to the players.

In our campaigns (both the ones I DM and play in) if the players don't optimize to a certain degree they probably won't last the distance - this build is simply a form of optimization in just the same way that 2H fighters are considered stronger than 2WF fighters. Personally I wouldn't play this build just because I don't like the concept but this particular PrC requires 4 classes as a minimum anyway

 

[apesamongus]

I think the problem with taking multiple prestige classes isn't a lack of focus - it's a lack of what the player actually wants.

If a player has to dip into multiple prestige classes to achieve his character, I'd recommend a better way of doing it - campaign-specific prestige classes.

Or better yet, Player-specific prestige classes.

I find it really odd for people to talk about making a character that makes sense or that follows a character concept only needing to take a few classes, when I find the exact opposite is true. When I see players try to make a character fit a concept they have to end up struggling and taking a half dozen classes, because many abilities that might be important to a concept might be buried inside a PrC and found nowhere else. If you treat PrCs as anything except another bundled skillset (and thereby limit dabbling), then you effectively put character concept at odds with the ability to model that concept within the rules.

 

[MoonZar]

Or better yet, Player-specific prestige classes.

I find it really odd for people to talk about making a character that makes sense or that follows a character concept only needing to take a few classes, when I find the exact opposite is true. When I see players try to make a character fit a concept they have to end up struggling and taking a half dozen classes, because many abilities that might be important to a concept might be buried inside a PrC and found nowhere else. If you treat PrCs as anything except another bundled skillset (and thereby limit dabbling), then you effectively put character concept at odds with the ability to model that concept within the rules.

Hello,

Why the players don't create a new prestige class with the DM approval when he need so much class to achieve a concept ?

 

[apesamongus]

Why the players don't create a new prestige class with the DM approval when he need so much class to achieve a concept ?

Because that is more work for both the player and GM. As it stands, multiclassing is actually weaker than taking a straight class, so if you can take a half dozen classes and get what you want, there is less chance of making something gamebreaking than if you were allowed to cherry pick just those abilities you want. Now, if they had a well tested and balanced system for making new PrCs that I could set my players free with and only need to glance at for glaring errors/exploits/extreme synergies, then your suggestion might be practical. But as it is, it's much less work to use the system as is.

 

[MoonZar]

Because that is more work for both the player and GM. As it stands, multiclassing is actually weaker than taking a straight class, so if you can take a half dozen classes and get what you want, there is less chance of making something gamebreaking than if you were allowed to cherry pick just those abilities you want. Now, if they had a well tested and balanced system for making new PrCs that I could set my players free with and only need to glance at for glaring errors/exploits/extreme synergies, then your suggestion might be practical. But as it is, it's much less work to use the system as is.

Well i don't totaly agree with that, multiclass could be very overpower when u pick one or two level in each class because many class give some of the best ability in the first level.

The character build you see in this topic is a fine exemple. Just check what the dragonslayer give at level one, +1 base attack, improved spell progression and the class features and 1d10, not bad.

Also you get very high saving thrown when you take many class, improving beetwen 2 and 4 point each 1 lv class you take.

I still think this worth it to create your own prestige class, after all if you plan to play 10 level in a prestige class this take a while to do it in the campaign to worth the effort of creating something new. Then the class could be use in another campaign, you just need to have good judgement about the abilities of the class.

 

[youspoonybard]

Because that is more work for both the player and GM.

For any character that I feel is worth playing or DMing, I will not mind taking the time to make a custom PrC. Perhaps not all DMs are like that, but I like my players to be interested in their characters, and if I don't spend the evening working something out then I don't think I'm a very good DM.

 

[MoonZar]

For any character that I feel is worth playing or DMing, I will not mind taking the time to make a custom PrC. Perhaps not all DMs are like that, but I like my players to be interested in their characters, and if I don't spend the evening working something out then I don't think I'm a very good DM.

The most interresting part about this is to help customize a world, your dm will use the class for NPC and other PC as well...

 

[Saeviomagy]

May be a popular build but does not makes it an official one. The logic in the roleplaying factor may also be questioned since it is in the optimization board.

Yeah, so that immediately disqualifies anyone there from being able to roleplay. How about you use the term rollplayer and then start talking about nazis, so we can end this thread right quick...

"Beginning at 2nd level, if the D.O. makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a succesful save (such as a red dragon's fiery breath or a fireball spell), she instead takes no damage, since her prescience allowed her to go out of the way faster. This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the evasion abilities used by monks and rogues." - Complete Divine page 36

The statement provided compares and differentiates the two abilities. The similarity is the effect having the same essence/common characteristic in taking no damage during a successful reflex save that would normally deal half damage; while the difference points to the use of the ability even on heavier armor(plus the fact it is not STEALTH but FORESIGHT that aided the D.O.). PO does mimic the evasion ability in some ways but in no means the two are identical.

I get a whole load of definitions, several of which support my position. Moreover, a google search of "this form of" gets me a whole load of references using "this form of" to mean "this type of", meaning that the former is a subcategory of the latter. Other searches on similar sentence fragments (like "a form of") get similar results.

ie - P.O. is a subcategory of evasion.

The stuff about heavier armour and evasion is just waffle. Nowhere is it said that evasion has anything to do with stealth.

Good luck on finding a god. BTW how can a character hide his beliefs from his deity during those 5 levels before he gets to F.L.?

At a guess, the build starts with 4 bard, one druid in any order. He then loses faith in his god and becomes an ur priest for a couple of levels. He is cursed by a vision from his old deity and goes on with divine oracle. Having had run-ins with dragons (and who doesn't?), he picks up dragonslayer (not sure of those prereqs though...). He dabbles with his bardic music a bit more and takes sublime chord. Finally he rounds out his unique talents with fochlucan lyrist - he is indeed masterfully skilful, his reknown is widely known, his talents great. Why wouldn't they accept him? Why wouldn't he want to learn from the best?

In short - all justifiable. Whether this will all actually happen in game is another story.