Players dissatisfied with level of danger in 4e

[LostSoul]

If you don't want to change the number of encounters per day, you can change extended rests so you need to take more time between them.

 

[Goonalan]

I appreciate your circumstances- one fight/day, one session per month, but you're letting the players off the hook with the encounter level +4.

I am a sad DM that tracks lots of things, so I can tell you now that I have played out 189 combats with my present party to date, I can tell you about each and every one of them, I know... I know...

So I've tried a few things, such as throwing six very short encounters at the group without letting them have a short rest... that scared the bejesus out of them. That was in Thunderspire Labyrinth...

Couple of Gnolls and a few Hyenas, easy work. Smash and the next lot is on them- more Hyena's and a Dragon- just get through that and here come more Gnolls, a hoard of them- the PCs have to flee at top speed, then part of the walkway they're on unpeals and begins to tumble into the chasm- which brings them out in range of a bunch more Gnolls with bows, so now the PCs are being shot at, cannot retaliate and are having terrain issues (ongoing Skill Challenge), and on it goes... Even to the point they reach a 'safe' zone (they think), only the ceiling collapses suddenly- the dragons back and the Gnolls drop back in and they're on the run again.

After five encounters, with no short rest, they run out into the open and safety.

That's when the Demonic Scourge and a pair of his Demon friends hit them.

My point, each encounter was level, or -1, -2, -3 even but six in a row and in one encounter, maybe 2 hours play we have Indiana Jones and his friends versus the world, oh and then the path they've been following is destroyed- no way back. Oh and if they defeat the monsters too quickly and they think they're going to rest- don't let them, have eight more monsters ready to go... rinse and repeat until they're screaming over Skype at you to make it stop, or running in fear with their 18 hit points left.

I've done it a few times to be honest, PC Rogue wants to get pay back on NPC Rogue- the other PCs are convinced (somehow).

PCs beat guards to NPC Rogue lair- except the one that runs inside- PCs head straight after (easy encounter afterall), straight into Encounter Level +2 or +3 with lots of Minions that get in the way and artillery around the outside, that slows them up until the invisible/concealed assassins arrive.

Then when they get done, another door opens and we're back into another encounter, with lots of fiddly little stuff, the PCs think they're gods gift and brazen it out.

Then the boss arrives.

PCs left with no healing, all battered and broken- no-one down admittedly but they were swearing and cursing.

The boss cuts a deal, and the PCs go home, tail between their legs.

I have a story I'm working on with my players (they don't know the story- I do), if I want to scare the bejesus out of them... then I do.

The players have just reached Paragon Level, I've thrown two level 17 encounters at them already (actually they were at level 9 & 10 respectively when I threw them at them). Winning sometimes means surviving, not getting the girl or saving the world.

Last one, encounters in a day, as in between extended rests- 13, that's our longest day; 13 encounters in a day, don't get me wrong the PCs are pretty hard core- not power gamers but willing in-game to try things (not just fancy encounter powers with dumb names) like leaping of houses into combat, attempting to drown creatures, riding crocodiles... you know the kind of thing- I have an anything goes action hero unwritten policy.

Not killed one yet. Two failed death saves, lots of times... never the third, 61 sessions in game, nearly two years.

I love it.

They love it.

PDR

If no one's scared, dead or whatever it is you want to achieve then the encounter doesn't stop there, a door opens and in walks... and then... and then... make them run away a couple of times, that makes me smile.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Could it be because we often have only one encounter per day, though it's invariably at (PC levels + 3) or more?

Yes.

With only one encounter per day, their healing surges are not under nearly as much pressure.

One encounter might cost 1 or more healing surges. Difficult encounters taking up several. But there is still that buffer left.

If you have 3-4 encounters before an extended rest, and healing surges start getting low, then the players will start feeling under threat.

 

[Plane Sailing]

nb I found death a bit too frequent in 4e - we had the death saves total reset each time and still suffered in the first 6 levels from:

* Dragonborn, 1st level Paladin. Killed by kobold minions.
* Tiefling, 1st level Warlord (tactical), killed by Irontooth, elite goblin beserker.
* Fredrick, 1st level Cleric,killed by kobold skirmishers.
* Elf, 2nd level Ranger (archer), digested by ochre jelly.
* Syisiphus. Eladrin, 3rd level Warlock (fey), eaten by a ghoul.
* Amano. Tiefling, 3rd level Warlord (tactical), killed by ongoing necrotic damage from Kalarel.
* Flagon. Halfling, 3rd level Rogue (brutal), killed by ongoing necrotic damage from Kalarel.
* Fawkes. Human 4th level Warlock (star). Killed by ongoing poison damage from a young green dragon.
* Arkus. Dwarf 4th level Cleric. Killed by friendly fire (unconscious next to flaming sphere).
* Varis. Half-elf paladin, 4th level Paladin. Killed by Duergar skirmishers.
* Liesel. Eladrin 4th level Fighter (2h). Killed by drowning while unconscious.
* Flagon. Halfling, 5th level rogue, killed by poison needle trap.
* Morthos. Tiefling 5th Wizard. Dissolved by gelatinous cube.
* Arkus. Dragonborn 6th level fighter (sword and board). Killed when alone by carnage demons.
* Mari. Killed by friendly fire from clerics guardian power while unconcious

 

[Jhaelen]

As you have figured, your decision to only run one fight per day is what causes your issue along with the fact that you are throwing n+3 encounters at them. If you want to create deadly combats for a fully rested party, you need to push the combats to n+4, n+5, possibly even n+6 depending on level and skill of your group.

Another way to threaten them more is to have monsters focus on one character at a time (within reason of course). Preferably not the defender.

Seconded.
Focused fire is something you should always strife for. In my games it isn't unusual that a pc goes down as early as in the second round. It's a good way to build up some pressure right from the start. Even a bunch of artillery minions can do the trick here.

However, I must admit I had only one encounter so far which really threatened the life of a pc and that was an n+4 encounter. However the encounter also was a near-tpk, so, you may want to be careful about upping the encounter level too much.

Re: Single Encounters:
The problem is that in 4e daily powers (especially in the mid to high-level range) are often encounter-changing abilities. If everyone in a group can freely activate all of them in a single encounter, they're overpoweringly strong.

So you should really either follow Mustrum's advice or limit the powers available to the pcs. E.g. only allow a single daily to be used in every encounter.

I don't any playtest experience yet with high level play, but I think it's also possible that negative bloodied is a bit too much. Maybe death at negative surge value would work better for a more lethal game.

 

[Shroomy]

You could always throw the pre-eratta daggertooth drake swarm.

Yeah, even the errata'd needlefang drake swarms are still too deadly for their level. I nearly TPK'd the party last night with a pair of them (they blunderered into an ambush that took place in tight quarters), and if I hadn't started pullling my punches (first I took mercy on them and had the needlefangs bypass unconscious characters, then I had to start fudging dice rolls), I would have killed more than just the bard and the druid's summoned creature.

 

[ExploderWizard]

If no one's scared, dead or whatever it is you want to achieve then the encounter doesn't stop there, a door opens and in walks... and then... and then... make them run away a couple of times, that makes me smile.

NO MORE AND THEN!!!!

Great post, nice situation with the gnolls.

 

[S'mon]

To clarify, what I didn't like was to have my stunned PC dropped into the well with a move action and with no roll - i.e. essentially for free as far as the action economy and any other form of resources were concerned. If you'd action pointed and used that to drop Hoka down the well I wouldn't have minded anything like as much. If you'd spread it out over two turns that wouldn't have been half as annoying (i.e. grabbed and stunned Hoka turn 1, and pulled him in turn 2 giving him a chance to save or escape) that would have been better. If you'd done it in one turn using an action point, hell, it's an action point - they should be scary.

But the way you had it set up was esentially roll to hit on standard, roll to hit on minor, automatic kill on move - all within the space of one turn and as SOP from a monster very unlikely to miss (higher levelled elite soldier IIRC). It was like the old 3.5 Save or Die spells in a game set up to deliberately avoid Save or Dies (OK, so it was two easy rolls rather than one hard one to almost entirely neutralise a PC for the remainder of the encounter - and kill him if we lost).

Yeah, that's how it's written, though - as stated the Grell enters combat in round 2 at the top of the well (which I foreshadowed in round 1) with its full set of actions and can apparently move stunned & grabbed PCs without a roll. I nerfed it to only allowing 1 square with no roll. The DD says it spends an action point 'if necessary' to drop a PC in in one round; the intent seems to be that it flies to the nearest PC if necessary (move), grabs & bite/stuns (standard + minor), then if it's already used its move it spends an AP to fly back and drop a PC in the well.

I nerfed it so it could only move 1 square. To compensate further for this mean trick by the writer I (a) wasted (ie did not powergame) its subsequent spending of its action point, so it didn't make a big difference and (b) had it behave cowardly and retreat when badly wounded, prioritise self-preservation over killing your PC.

The adventure assumes the PCs take a short rest before the final battle, it was your choice to charge in immediately (playing recklessly in-character), without resting and before your group was well positioned. Choices don't always work out well.

 

[S'mon]

But the way you had it set up was esentially roll to hit on standard, roll to hit on minor, automatic kill on move - all within the space of one turn and as SOP from a monster very unlikely to miss (higher levelled elite soldier IIRC). It was like the old 3.5 Save or Die spells in a game set up to deliberately avoid Save or Dies (OK, so it was two easy rolls rather than one hard one to almost entirely neutralise a PC for the remainder of the encounter - and kill him if we lost).

And four of them in one encounter facing 33(?) orcs. To be fair, I enjoy the higher difficulty level as long as I think there's something I can do about it.

Well if you don't like the risk of random PC death and out-level encounters I would advise against playing in my Vault of Larin Karr game, it's deliberately 'old school' that way, I've endeavoured to make that clear. Stuart's first PC Gregg was shredded by gargoyles through no fault of his own in a no-save-and-die situation.

The Dungeon Delves are if anything less deadly than the regular campaign; the grell's tactics with the 30' drop won't normally kill a full-hp PC - and didn't kill yours!

The White Fist orcs comprised: 4 Drudge sentries, 30 Drudges in the main cavern, 4 Raiders (2 started off wounded), 1 Berserker and 1 Death Mage, for 40 orcs total. And the White Fists were one of the weaker orc tribes, especially since the PCs had already killed 10 of them in the battle at the river.

 

[Dausuul]

Killing players treads perilously close to going to jail.

Killing characters? Totally different.

An unconscious character in the auto-attack area of a swarm is also harsh. I almost died from that.

I killed a PC this way in my very first session.

But 4E does have this tendency... it's very hard to hit the spot where there's a real possibility of one PC dying, without cranking up the danger level so high that you're facing probable TPK.

Some ways to achieve this goal within the standard rules:

• Have the nastier intelligent monsters make coup de grace attacks on fallen PCs.
• Lethal terrain hazards, like the classic bottomless pit. (Although I would recommend a pit with a bottom, say 35 feet deep plus 15 feet per level. Such a pit has a fair chance to kill a PC who falls into it, and for those who survive, the healer will have to scramble to get there in time. It's more fun if you can make the players sweat before they die.)
• Massive focused fire from monsters. Lots of artillery, lurkers, and brutes, fewer soldiers.
• Monsters with area attacks which they use aggressively and without regard for people already on the ground. Make that negative bloodied rule count.