Players, DMs and Save or Die

[Hussar]

Looking at the various posts about the CR system and how Bodaks don't work in it due to their save-or-die effect, I started wondering:

*Can* the CR system handle weak creatures that have one spectacular ability? I'm thinking even more extreme than the Bodak here...how about a little 2 HD housecat-size critter with AC 10 and absolutely nothing going for it except if it touches you at all you lose your entire memory (this includes all your learning i.e. experience i.e. experience points...)? How about the Medusa...low HD, poor at everything, but has save-or-petrify gaze - *and* save-or-regret-it poison if you're dumb enough to get close to it?

These sort of encounters are going to be (or should be) either absolute pushovers for the average party if they are lucky and-or smart, and deadly if they're unlucky or not smart. So how do you (or can you at all) assign a CR to it?

Lanefan

Not sure about the mind eating house cat thing. To me, that's probably one of the most piss poor designed monsters out there. It's not even a monster really, it's a trap with a movement score. Lame. There is no reason to have such a monster in the game. IMO, that pretty much defines unfun - Bang, bang, (queue Nelsonesque laugh) Look at you, roll a new PC!

No thanks. Even back in the day, when such monsters were fairly common in the Monster Manual (or Fiend Folio or whatever) I knew they were lame and didn't use them.

Medusa is another poster child. Glass cannon. If you make your saving throw, you whack the medusa without breaking a sweat. Have a protection from Petrification scroll handy? Dead medusa.

That's the whole problem with SoD type creatures, they're almost always glass cannons. If you bypass their SoD ability, they're a joke. If you don't, you're dead. There's very little room for in between. Give me a much more robust creature any day of the week thanks. One that if the party is smart, they can counter some of its abilities, but, it doesn't turn the encounter into a barrel shoot.

People have talked about using information and build up to make SoD monsters better. But, that's true for a lot of monsters. Tell the PC's that there's a demon in that cave, and they go, get some cold iron weapons, invest in a scroll of Dimensional Lock and come back. When they meet the demon, they've negated a couple of its bigger abilities - DR and teleport and gate - but, they've still got to deal with a pissed off demon. Party is rewarded for being smart, but, they are not going to simply send the wizard forward to beat the rust monster to death with a club. Oops, sorry, channeling a rather similar discussion.

In any case, it's not like they simply put a blindfold on one character, cast something to give him blindsight/sense, slow poison and send her in to beat the medusa to death.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

People have a funny definition of a "glass cannon" nowadays. And somehow it seems to be okay if a combat encounter is over quickly because the combat monsters did their work efficiently, but it's not okay if a combat encounter ends quickly because the information masters did their work efficiently.

 

[Remathilis]

*Can* the CR system handle weak creatures that have one spectacular ability?
Lanefan

The "glass cannon" approach really doesn't work at all. Consider traps in 3.5 They are the ultimate glass cannons (they can be disarmed a number of ways before taking a single point of damage, as long as they are properly reconned) Traps have CRs from 1-10, but I think there are few DMs who put a acid arrow trap at the same caliber of challenge as a dragon or stone giant. Your "death kitty" monster is effectively a trap: a one-time gotcha that is no challenged if scouted and dealt with but a deathtrap to the unprepared.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Considering the poll shows those that don't like save or die outnumber those that do by a margin of about 2:1, I'm thinking your rhetoric is perhaps slightly skewed.

Remember, polls are meaningless and faulty unless they demonstrate what the speaker is claiming to be the case.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Hey, roughly 1% of all members on ENWorld have actually voted here, I think this is a pretty popular poll.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Heck, for another example, let's give take a CR 13 encounter made of bodaks. That's 5 bodaks. According to the doc, that's 20 saving throws in the first round, so, 66% chance of PC fatality, regardless of their level. Even 20th level PC's suffer this same chance of death.

In creatures with SoD effects, 5 Cr 8's making up a CR 13 encounter is a soft ball encounter. 13th level PC's will steamroll this encounter since CR8's simply can't hit hard enough to matter. Yet, if I use bodaks, I wind up with a high chance of lethality.

This is why SoD is just lame.

How about an EL 13 encounter made up of goblins? Does the CR system work well for that?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Question: why is death the only acceptable form of "losing" in D&D? Why does an encounter have to have the threat of death for it to be meaningful?

Lets say your playing a hypothetical RPG where your character cannot "die". If he is reduced to 0 or lower hp, he's out of the battle, but not dead. He'll recover in 8 hours. However, during those 8 hours, you could have your all gear stolen, be sold into slavery, be ransomed back to your family, or simply imprisoned in the evil mage's dungeon.

Is that less meaningful than a game where death is a real, viable, and constant threat?

Remove the word "constant" and I would say "Yes".

Of course, YMMV.

RC

 

[Baby Samurai]

How about an EL 13 encounter made up of goblins? Does the CR system work well for that?

Depends on their class and levels.

But in my experience the vague and arbitrary CR system has always sucked donkey.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Considering the poll shows those that don't like save or die outnumber those that do by a margin of about 2:1, I'm thinking your rhetoric is perhaps slightly skewed.

I am sure that there are many things in D&D that are only enjoyed by 1/3 of the players. If we removed all of them on that basis, I wonder if there would be anything left.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Depends on their class and levels.

But in my experience the vague and arbitrary CR system has always sucked donkey.

My point exactly.

That you can't get a good CR fix on this, that, or the other (and there are a lot of places where the CR system plain falls down) is a fault of the CR system, not the things it can't handle. Which is, perhaps, why the 4e designers decided to scrap the CR system, no? What looks good in theory sometimes proves to suck donkey after about a year of solid play (when the shiny newness wears off).

Instead of saying, "Traps suck 'cause the CR System can't handle them" and "SoD effects suck 'cause the CR System can't handle them" and "Monsters with neat effects but poor combat stats suck 'cause the CR System can't handle them", and "Anything but out-and-out combat monsters suck 'cause the CR System can't handle them", maybe we could just say "The CR System sucks" and be done with it.

RC