Players, DMs and Save or Die

[Cadfan]

*shrugs*

Reading posts like ptolemy's, I can't help but suspect that his point of view is very... contingent?

I think that if save-or-die hadn't existed in previous editions, and if it were being introduced to the community now for the first time, basically everyone would be against it.

WOTC: Ok, ok. Here's our latest from R&D. You're gonna love this. Ready? Ready?
Gamers: Oooh oooh tell us tell us!
WOTC: Its a type of spell...
Gamers: Oooh! We love spells!
WOTC: That does something never before seen in D&D...
Gamers: *collectively draw in breath*
WOTC: When its cast on you, you roll a saving throw...
Gamers: *hold breath*
WOTC: If the target succeed, nothing happens at all...
Gamers: *turn slightly blue*
WOTC: And if you fail your character dies. BAM! DEAD! You can't even use raise dead to get him back cause its a "death effect!"
Gamers: *choke and collapse*

 

[Jhulae]

I've already made my feelings on why I don't like SoD effects on another thread.

I'd like to point out though, that I don't consider something like Flesh to Stone a SoD really. It's *much* easier to overcome with something like Break Enchantment, a spell that's Cleric, Bard, Paladin, and Wiz/Sorc, and works on multiple targets with no expensive component. In fact, if the Bard or Sorcerer has the spell, the PC might be back the very next round. Yes, it's still a bummer as a player to be turned to stone, but it's *nowhere* as bad as being dead.

 

[Psion]

On either side of the screen, I prefer a game in which there is a real feel of risk. SoD is a tool to make that happen. I do think it should be used sparingly and principally as part of climactic encounters.

My next D&D game will be playing in Necromancer Games' Rappan Athuk. Very lethal dungeon. But I'm excited.

 

[Arkhandus]

As we walk out of the complex a curse set upon us when we disturbed some skulls kicks into effect...

I roll a 1 and die.

A worthless death and made me (and everyone else at the table) feel cheated.

Example 2: Phase Spider pops out and attacks my caster in the surprise round, I end up dead from constitution loss so quick that I can't do anything about it. Oh ya, that was fun.


Any good story telling GM will find that save or die effects not only takes away from the story, but takes away from the fun of the game

Meh. Example 1, obviously nobody bothered to detect the Transmutation aura affecting the characters, even though spellcasters have plenty of marginally-useful cantrip/orison spell slots to use for Detect Magic, and nobody bothered to try Dispel Magic or Remove Curse to see if that would get rid of the effect.

This is only bad DMing if your party was low-level and had no access to Remove Curse or the like (which comes in at 5th or 7th-level, depending on class). Not a problem with save-or-die (it could've just been a Fire Trap or something else lower-level, after all, that still could've blown up in someone's face and killed them with damage because they failed to detect or go around it).


Example 2, your mage would've died anyway if it was just a Goblin Rogue sneak attacking you, or an Orc Warrior rolling high on his greataxe's damage roll or maybe rolling a crit. Or if you were higher level, an Invisible Stalker or Dire Tiger. Still not a problem with save-or-die (or in your case, save-or-Con-damage).

Perhaps instead you'd rather eliminate all randomness? It's certainly an option (say that all dice rolls automatically count being as 1/2 their maximum result).


And personally, I didn't find reading stories of Hercules, Perseus, or others was any less interesting just because creatures like the Medusa could kill or petrify enemies with a look. It just made them challenges of wits more than just stupid brute force. I have no problem with save-or-die as a player nor as a DM. Crit happens, and SoD happens.

SoD just has the grace to wait until you're mid-to-upper-level and better-suited to thwart it if reasonably prepared for adventuring. And a lesson learned is a lesson learned; you may still be able to get Raised or Resurrected or Reincarnated, and you won't likely underestimate the importance of Fortitude saves, Death Ward, or similar things a second time.


The satyr druid in my Thursday game recently lost both of his polar bear animal companions (3.0 D&D, not stupid 3.5 one-magical-sort-of-animal-esque-pet-for-you D&D), one hacked apart by orcish barbarians and another more recently flash-frozen by a white dragon's breath. He reincarnated the first as a human, by chance, and the second as a pixie. He'll pick up new animal companions this week, but he now has two new comrades who aren't quite accustomed to being above animal intelligence.

But it'll be fun, and the party's cleric can Raise Dead if anyone else dies (assuming they don't just spend some of their new dragon-loot on paying for a Res or True Res). They haven't faced any save-or-die effects so far, as they're a party of mostly-warriors and facing primarily warrior-type foes, but the campaign's only been going a few weeks. And most of the party has gotten themselves awesome Fortitude saves anyway.

 

[Arkhandus]

On either side of the screen, I prefer a game in which there is a real feel of risk. SoD is a tool to make that happen. I do think it should be used sparingly and principally as part of climactic encounters.

My next D&D game will be playing in Necromancer Games' Rappan Athuk. Very lethal dungeon. But I'm excited.

Agreed. And sometimes it's fun to go through an oldschool dungeon crawl.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Um, what?

 

[Jhulae]

On either side of the screen, I prefer a game in which there is a real feel of risk. SoD is a tool to make that happen.

Except there is still risk without SoD effects. Unless you mean "I prefer a game in which there is a real feel of arbitrary death".

 

[Roadkill101]

I'm usually a GM and I don't like save-or-die. Which is odd because I like to run grim and gritty style games where real world physics factor in heavily. Thus death from a venomous snakebite is out the door. I'd rather the venom result in some sort of handicap (typically as a mechanical penalty) to make the game more challenging.
If I do use a save-or-die effect, I make it known that the character(s) in question are facing a situation that may result in a fatality (where this knowledge is character knowledge, not just the players).

 

[Anthtriel]

And personally, I didn't find reading stories of Hercules, Perseus, or others was any less interesting just because creatures like the Medusa could kill or petrify enemies with a look. It just made them challenges of wits more than just stupid brute force. I have no problem with save-or-die as a player nor as a DM. Crit happens, and SoD happens.

But the way SoD works, Hercules would actually get killed in at least 1/20 of those tales. In Heroic fantasy, the heroes (certainly the central ones, comparable to PCs) always survive those encounters.
So a less deadly system would work better for modelling heroic tales or fantasy.

So, SO true. A million zillion times true.

A good DM has either (1) the courage and quick-wittedness to let the players break their carefully constructed plot and roll with it or (2) the tenacity and quick-wittedness to somehow railroad them back into the plot, even if they *do* make some insanely unlikely roll or kill some important NPC/monster/whatever.

This is why I dislike railroading and "you must do this and this and this in this order" tube-structured, quest-structured linear adventures. They are always inflexible and a good party can always "break" them if they want to. Give me an oldschool module where there's just a dungeon map and let the PCs figure out how to defeat the dungeon and where to enter and so forth. Or give me a module where it's all about diplomacy and clashing factions and there's just a list of statted NPCs and no real structure and it's up to the PCs and the DM to figure out how they interact and how they meet eachother. This is the meat and drink of gaming.

This whole discussion reminds me of that awesome KoDT comic where Brian sacrifices his own character to insta-kill the vampire lord who they were supposed to spend the entire campaign fighting.

You cannot seriously tell me that it's somehow a good thing if the BBEG dies in the first round of combat. No matter how you do it, it's still just about the most anti-climatic experience possible. Maybe in a comedy campaign, but everywhere else, it will feel really out of place.

If your argument is just "Well, a good DM can deal with it.", then great. A good DM can also deal with THACO and racial level limits, so we should bring them back, no?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Oh, I see, someone has fixed the poll. Unfortunately, my vote is now in the "fixed" vote.
My correct vote was: I am both a DM and a player and I dislike Save or Die. I do _not_ support it.

Is there a way to "unvote"?