Players, DMs and Save or Die

[hong]

So because you get to make a few more dice rolls before you get critted, that is less arbitrary?

Yes. The standard deviation of a sum is less than the sum of the standard deviations.

 

[hong]

Which always makes me wonder if they'd say the same about energy attacks, dragon breath, poison, and similar abilities that can be researched and countered with a little time and preparation.

No, then you get whinging about players who read the MM.

 

[Plane Sailing]

In a way, the big issue for 'Save or Die' in 4e is likely to be that there are no saves...

In 3e, if the DM says "He casts destruction on you. Make a DC23 Fort save" you (and the rest of the party) are willing the dice to roll high as you make that save in a tense moment while you wait for the dice to stop rolling.

In 4e, do we want the DM to say "He casts destruction on you (rolls) and beats your Fort defence so you die"?

I don't think that would fly, would it

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Yes. The standard deviation of a sum is less than the sum of the standard deviations.

Yep. And if you look at the standard deviation of exactly one die roll, it's 0. Which proves exactly what in the question if one die roll vs. a few die rolls between death is more arbitrary?

 

[Geron Raveneye]

In a way, the big issue for 'Save or Die' in 4e is likely to be that there are no saves...

In 3e, if the DM says "He casts destruction on you. Make a DC23 Fort save" you (and the rest of the party) are willing the dice to roll high as you make that save in a tense moment while you wait for the dice to stop rolling.

In 4e, do we want the DM to say "He casts destruction on you (rolls) and beats your Fort defence so you die"?

I don't think that would fly, would it

Just a silly question, but why not? If the game enables me to crit with a fireball, and nothing keeping me from doing enough damage to outright kill half the characters on the playing field with two lucky rolls, why shouldn't I be able to kill one character on the playing field with one lucky roll?

 

[Anthtriel]

Just a silly question, but why not? If the game enables me to crit with a fireball, and nothing keeping me from doing enough damage to outright kill half the characters on the playing field with two lucky rolls, why shouldn't I be able to kill one character on the playing field with one lucky roll?

Because (hopefully), Fireballs are less dangerous in 4E and have less damage variance. AoE crits should have come up in playtesting.

And even if you take a large amount of damage from a critical hit and die, the difference is still that you died because you took damage beforehand. With a SoE, you just stand there, and the DM informs you that you just died, without even the illusion of input on your part.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Give me an oldschool module where there's just a dungeon map and let the PCs figure out how to defeat the dungeon and where to enter and so forth. Or give me a module where it's all about diplomacy and clashing factions and there's just a list of statted NPCs and no real structure and it's up to the PCs and the DM to figure out how they interact and how they meet eachother. This is the meat and drink of gaming.

Agreed.

RC

 

[Geron Raveneye]

And even if you take a large amount of damage from a critical hit and die, the difference is still that you died because you took damage beforehand. With a SoE, you just stand there, and the DM informs you that you just died, without even the illusion of input on your part.

Right, because no crit can take a character from full to dead in the blink of an eye.

 

[hong]

Yep. And if you look at the standard deviation of exactly one die roll, it's 0.

Oh dear.

 

[Anthtriel]

Right, because no crit can take a character from full to dead in the blink of an eye.

Not in 4E, hopefully.