D&D 5E Players Killing Players for stupid reason

TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
This sort of thread always reminds me of the NENAD, as first written about here: http://www.rpg.net/columns/building/building1.phtml

I believe that the players as a group need to be comfortable with stated decisions about character play; they must all know, respect, and expect the same conditions.

For example, I don't allow players in my games to steal from each other. If a PC breaks that rule, the other characters are free to enforce whatever punishment they deem fitting.
 

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Should i allow my PC's to kill another PC just because "he wasn't here"?

Players killing players!!! I wouldn't be ok with murder. Its just a game after all.:p

Characters OTOH, I don't care. Not my business as long as all actions remain in-game and such a thing is possible under the circumstances. Character differences are to be settled between players.

I have to ask though- how does one kill someone who isn't there? I would at least require the victim to be there in order to be killed. I mean the PCs just can't say "I kill bad guy X" when bad guy X is nowhere around.
 

Thyrwyn

Explorer
You are pretending that no character can be created, outside of the player's ability to interpret it.
There is no pretending about it: if there are no players, there is no character.

[A character] is a real part of that world, by mutual consensus.
It is an idea that is part of another, larger idea. It has no agency, no will (free or otherwise), no consciousness.

When you play a role... [some words about different people being able to play the same character] This is possible because the character exists outside of our playing it.
But it does not exist outside of someone playing it. And only that part of the character that has been shared with others exists outside of the original player's portrayal of that character. If you knew that red was Gnoll-slayer Bill's favorite color, but had never shared that with anyone else, then no-one else would know to play Bill that way. And if someone else declared that blue was Bill's favorite color while you were out sick, ("Bill picks the blue pill - it's his favorite color."), they have not "played the role poorly".

Given that this is a role-playing game, poor role-playing should be avoided when possible.
By similar logic: "RISK is a war game: I should bring a handgun and shoot my opponents; to do otherwise would be poor war-play." Both examples are faulty because first and foremost both RISK and D&D are games, their genre is secondary.

My point is just that the character exists independently from the players. There is a true version of the character, within the collective reality formed by player imagination, and someone playing that character is merely offering their own understanding of that reality...
Characters are not Platonic Ideals. They are not accessible to anyone, only to those with whom they have been shared. If there were one TRUE Gnoll-slayer Bill, then I could have discovered him myself; also, there would be an objective means of determining which actions and behavior would be appropriate interpretations of TRUE Bill, without referencing previous interpretations. You could not claim to have "created" Bill - he would simply be.

...I can't say that Gnoll-slayer Bill will choose to spare this one gnoll, which is indistinguishable from every other gnoll he's killed, because I can't honestly tell you that this is the action he would take in that situation. I am merely a lens. I can only tell you what I see.
First of all, this Gnoll is different - it is a PC. Within the scope of the game, that is a relevant, significant difference. PCs are the protagonists, the engine that drives the game-world and the shared experience that we (the real, tangible persons) are there to enjoy. Second, who cares? So what if it were just another monster, some nameless NPC story-bound to cross your path? That Gnoll represents an opportunity, an opportunity for you to prove Bill might be a character capable of growth, capable of becoming something more. That Gnoll represents an opportunity for you to role-play Bill coming face to face with his blind, racial hatred. It could be argued, that to ignore that opportunity, to say "Nah, I'm good with Bill being immutable" is role-playing poorly. Growth is what separates characters from caricatures.

TL : DR - The people playing the game should always discuss and compromise on what types of characters should be allowed at the table. If a given character would be offensive to any of said real people, then the character should not be allowed. If any given character would create a conflict with any other character, the real people should discuss it and see if there is any way to justify and explain a way for the characters to overcome their differences. Compromise whenever possible. Be excellent to each other whenever possible :)
 

My 3E group named our adventuring party the Zerglings. PC deaths, even by other PCs, were common.

A favorite tactic? Designate a backpack the Expendable Kit. The PC who wore it was expendable for that dungeon. The backpack was filled with alchemist's fire. The PC wearing it would charge into close range near as many enemies as possible, and then the wizard or sorcerer would hit them with a fireball.

So, uh, I guess I have a different viewpoint from most people here...
 

GameDoc

Explorer
So I'm playing in an evil campaign right now, and it's a ton of fun. Last night two new characters joined the session, and the other player said he wanted to aim his crossbow at one of them, "Because how would my character know who he is?"

The DM looked right at him and went, "I'll tell you who that is, that's your new teammate. You're not pointing your crossbow at him."

In general, PVP doesn't sound like a good thing unless it's that kind of campaign, or you're in a tournament or an arena, or something like that.

Everyone is interpreting this as a budding PvP. But was it really? I've been in several scenarios where a new character is introduced to the party midstream and gets a weapon pointed at him until we roleplay out how that new guy establishes who he is and why he's there. In none of these were the other players ACTUALLY going to attack the new character. They were roleplaying wariness on the part of their characters with the implicit understanding we're acting out a scene that needs to end in the new guy joining the group.

I guess I'd need to know if the player in question was actually going to shoot at the new guy (which may or may not be unacceptable depending on the gaming group), or if he was roleplaying in a way that seemed consistent with how villainous characters meet and negotiate alliances with one another. Pointing a crossbow and firing it are not the same thing.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
While what you said is true, it does not apply to his example. First come, first served. If a PC hates and kills Gnolls on sight, the person bringing in a Gnoll PC later on is the dxxk, not the first player. The first PC should kill the Gnoll PC on sight and trying to justify an exception because the Gnoll is a PC and not an NPC is poor role playing.

Edit: I just realized that you might be agreeing with him. If so, nevermind.

I am actually stating the real precept. His statement may have been meant with regards to the one case, but it was worded in a general way, which made it false as stated.

If you knowingly bring a character that clashes majorly into the game, yes, that's not holding to your responsibility. But the player who refuses to flex a little to accommodate a new character if the clash isn't too major is also not upholding their responsibility.

Right. Creating a character that doesn't fit into the game, and wanting everyone else to conform around you, is a pretty selfish move. It's not a social contract that you'll get many people to sign.

The word *EVERYONE* seems to have missed your notice. It is important, and needs to be considered in fullness.

Yes, creating a character that outright doesn't fit, and wanting all else to change for you, is selfish. But inviting someone in, but giving them no allowances to change things up a bit so their concepts can fit, is also selfish. Maybe that one player whose character cannot stand gnolls ought to at least consider the possibilities of the, "learn they aren't *all* so bad," plotline, for example. It sounds like a place for negotiations, not flat out NO! This sort of thing is the very essence of cooperation, like we learned in... kindergarten, I think, right?

As soon as someone is invited to the table, their needs have to be given equal consideration. Seniority is largely irrelevant.
 

First of all, this Gnoll is different - it is a PC.
This is meaningless. The concept of PC is not one which has any meaning within the game world. Your character cannot possibly base any decisions on this factor. If you take this factor into consideration, then you are biasing your interpretation of the character based on meta-gaming concerns.
 

if you had never slain in game or refrenced slaying a woman or child gnoll then it is completely schrozinger cat... you both do have and don't have such a quirk until it comes up...
Not true! Schrodinger's cat is merely a method by which an observer can decide how to act upon his or her ignorance. The actual truth of the situation - whether the cat is alive or dead, whether the character does or does not possess a given trait - is factually true or false before the observer learns of it.

If you consider the possibility of this trait only when it would be convenient for the meta-game, then you are biasing your interpretation of the truth because you want the result to be a certain thing. Not cool, yo!

again you go out of your way to dance around a very basic idea... you the player are the one in control...
No, you're not. The player doesn't have nearly as much control as you seem to think it does. Not if you want to actually play the character with any sort of integrity, anyway.

The player isn't doesn't choose the action of the character. The player merely does his or her best to determine what the character would actually do.
 


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