Players not taking AoO

[incognito]

ok, well, I don't want to continue a discussion/disagreement if you are happy to drop it. I can;t resist one last post, though

So in general, by the book, the statement "The PC's have a hard enough time." is not really true. Many combats mererly consume resources, and are not life-threatening. Some are though, and they should be tough.

I think my players would be disspointed if the last encounted went something like:

DM: OK, the enemy high mage lifts the power potion to his lips, which will fill his body with abyssal energy and...

PC1: That mage is in my threatened square, right? And drinking a potion provides an AoO, right? I use the AoO to Break/Disarm his of the potion.

DM: (frustrated) - but the potion was the apotheosis of this story arc - without it, he is just a burned out wizard! He took a 5' step back first, of course!

PC1: Nope, you didn;t SAY he took a 5' step, so I take my AoO!

The point of a 'Challenge', is that it is supposed to be Challenging.

Now if an Uber smart party member had been invisible, and readied an action to shoot the potion with an arrow before the Wizard could drink it - that's a different story!

 

[megamania]

Considering their play experience, it shouldn't be neccessary but remind them a few times then slowly stop.

Much depends on how you DM or at least your philosophy-

Is the DM the referee / narrator in an ongoing story

OR

Is the DM in charge of opposition? (the bad guy)

Happy holidaze!

 

[Mort]

ok, well, I don't want to continue a discussion/disagreement if you are happy to drop it. I can;t resist one last post, though

So in general, by the book, the statement "The PC's have a hard enough time." is not really true. Many combats mererly consume resources, and are not life-threatening. Some are though, and they should be tough.

I think my players would be disspointed if the last encounted went something like:

DM: OK, the enemy high mage lifts the power potion to his lips, which will fill his body with abyssal energy and...

PC1: That mage is in my threatened square, right? And drinking a potion provides an AoO, right? I use the AoO to Break/Disarm his of the potion.

DM: (frustrated) - but the potion was the apotheosis of this story arc - without it, he is just a burned out wizard! He took a 5' step back first, of course!

PC1: Nope, you didn;t SAY he took a 5' step, so I take my AoO!

The point of a 'Challenge', is that it is supposed to be Challenging.

Now if an Uber smart party member had been invisible, and readied an action to shoot the potion with an arrow before the Wizard could drink it - that's a different story!

Of course a challenge is supposed to be challenging - and in the case you just pointed frankly I can't see myself making the mistake when it's that important.
Regardless, I think you're getting bogged down in semantics, I stated I "tend to be harder on myself" not that I'm an idiot about it.
The real question under the above circumstances is what helps the the flow, action and or the group more:
1)retconing (taking the action back) or 2) living with the error and going on.
The decision depends on several factors - not the least of which is what you think (or know) the group reaction will be.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I ran into a friend that I have DM'd for in the past on the subway today (not all that surprising considering it wasn't crowded because nobody is working today except me apparently - although obviously I'm not that busy ) and we chatted a little about this.

He said something interesting that I thought I'd pass on (this isn't exactly verbatim): "I don't want the DM to play my character for me, even if his intentions are meant to be beneficial. I want my successes and my mistakes to be my own. If I wanted that, we could just rent a movie."

I'm having trouble seeing how mentioning you can take an AoO in any way resembles the DM playing your character. That's like saying the DM is playing your character when he describes the room you are in or a NPC you meet.

 

[incognito]

Shard:
Try and read betweent the lines and understand the spirit of what he is saying.

Not mentioning an AoO and moving on means the character has made a mistake - a mistake that player wants to learn by. He does not want his hand held by the DM.

All: Take this to the extreme. A player shows up and does not understand any of the intracacies of combat. You are always reminding him that his movement will casue an AoO, to cast defensively, not to move more than 5' if he wishes to take a full attack, etc. etc. etc.

This would be fairly annoying to the DM and other players.

I expect a reasonable mastery of the game. For those who argue the characters are meant to simulate heroes who would know better - Look at video games. Often the main character in adventure type games is meant to be a hero, but until you get used to the controls - the world's jumping/attacking/moving engine, you can appear quite awkward.

I think the players who complain about missing an AoO here or there are basically like those who pick up a video game controller and are frustrated in the first 10 min when they are not the complete masters of the game. Kinda whiny.

 

[jaerdaph]

I'm having trouble seeing how mentioning you can take an AoO in any way resembles the DM playing your character. That's like saying the DM is playing your character when he describes the room you are in or a NPC you meet.

It's just one person's opinion in a field of equally valid ones, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Shard:
Try and read betweent the lines and understand the spirit of what he is saying.

Not mentioning an AoO and moving on means the character has made a mistake - a mistake that player wants to learn by. He does not want his hand held by the DM.


I think the players who complain about missing an AoO here or there are basically like those who pick up a video game controller and are frustrated in the first 10 min when they are not the complete masters of the game. Kinda whiny.

Even reading between the lines the statement is hugely lacking. People miss things, its not even close to hand holding, and or telling you how to run your character, and is much closer the DM not describing a room fully and then killing the PCs because they walked right into the axe the unmentioned orc standing in the middle of the room was swinging.

And your last comment there is just moronic and rude.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

It's just one person's opinion in a field of equally valid ones, nothing more, nothing less.

Yep, and I just disagree with it totally.

 

[incognito]

Shard: I didn;t mean to be rude, that's for sure.

I do thinks it's whiny though, when someone pouts becasue they cannot figure out how to do the < insert SSX's Tricky combo move here > in the first 10 minutes of playing the game.

Is it too late to apologise?

 

[jaerdaph]

Yep, and I just disagree with it totally.

And it wasn't necessarily my opinion entirely, either.