Players really want the Necromancer? (Forked: Non-published concepts you want)

[jdrakeh]

NPCs do not work like PCs do.

Yes, I know. This isn't an issue. NPCs working differently is fine, but even minions have rules that govern them.

And I really don't see them bending over backwards to give rules minutia as to why NPCs can do something.

I'm not sure that some basic powers for a very popular fantasy constitute minutiae. That seems like it might be of some use unlike, say, a list of 57 different numerical bonuses based on weather conditions.

 

[Rechan]

Then I really don't understand what you want. What do you expect? Give an example of something that you want in terms of rules.

An NPC only ritual? A power that lets them summon x undead during an encounter? I don't 'get' what you're driving at.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I'm curious as to how these necromancers handled whether their actions inflicted emotional trauma on the dead person's friends and family members, surely some of whom are innocent and not looking to be BBEGs some day. Or is that where the neutrality comes in?

I once came up with a setting where necromancy was the most common form of arcane magic (thanks to certain quirks in the landscape that were unexplained, even by me). Most civilised necromancers had their undead servants go masked or robed in public, to avoid upsetting the common citizenry.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I want specialists for all schools of magic- Divination, Abjuration, and yes, even Necromancy.

A corpse defiling, soul-taunting, undead making user of the black arts.

That is a purely Western stereotype that does not model every spellcaster who deals with the dead.

Just as a frex, I have a PC concept based on a practitioner of voodoun (basically using the updated OA Shaman multiclassed with SpecWiz: Necro). He does not dominate the dead, he deals with them. He asks their favor, they grant him power.

Those who created mummies were creating guardians for their esteemed dead, not evil monsters (which is recognized in some versions of the D&D mummy, BTW). They weren't alone, either. If you look hard enough in fable and fantasy, you'll find examples of people who volunteered to defend those that they loved even after death.

Sometimes, the necromancer's job was that of shepherding the newly dead to the next stage of existence. Sometimes, their job was to shepherd to the afterlife (or to use Terry Pratchett's word, inhume) those who were using magic to thwart Death's will with longevity potions, etc.

But instead of being open minded, 4Ed shackles the creativity of the players- Necromancy = BAD, so you can't play with it.

 

[Rechan]

But instead of being open minded, 4Ed shackles the creativity of the players- Necromancy = BAD, so you can't play with it.

Eh what? You can't play with it because it's not been published yet.

Same reason why there's no illusionist.

 

[Pale Master]

This is the first 4E thread that I've replied to. For obvious reasons.

In my experience, in 3.xE, MMORPG's had the right idea - one big, bad pet, instead of a horde of tiny, easily-killed minions (which I suppose you could call the "Diablo 2 paradigm").

I like animating the dead, but I also like having creepy necrotic powers. Really as long as I can write the word "Necromancer" on my sheet, I'm happy.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Eh what? You can't play with it because it's not been published yet.

Fair enough...

But instead of being open minded, CORE 4Ed shackles the creativity of the players (relative to CORE 3Ed)- Necromancy = BAD, so you can't play with it.

 

[GSHamster]

Fair enough...

But instead of being open minded, CORE 4Ed shackles the creativity of the players (relative to CORE 3Ed)- Necromancy = BAD, so you can't play with it.

I think WotC just hasn't come up with a good solution for handling PC minions, yet. Each minion essentially gives the player extra actions, while increasing the length of her turn relative to the other players.

WotC needs a good mechanic that doesn't give the player too many extra actions, and keeps her turn length roughly equal to that of the other players. Relatively tough problem, and I admit I can't come up with a decent solution.

Once they have that, you can make all sorts of pet classes. Summoners, necromancers, beastmasters, maybe a cavalier mounted on a horse, etc.

 

[fba827]

This is the first 4E thread that I've replied to. For obvious reasons.

In my experience, in 3.xE, MMORPG's had the right idea - one big, bad pet, instead of a horde of tiny, easily-killed minions (which I suppose you could call the "Diablo 2 paradigm").

I like animating the dead, but I also like having creepy necrotic powers. Really as long as I can write the word "Necromancer" on my sheet, I'm happy.

I'd say you could get that with

* necrotic damage dealing spells
* spells that cause the weaken status on it's targets
* zones spells that cause the weaken status as well as dealing minor necrotic damage
* summon conjuration/ create undead, it has hp equal to your int score. attacks as your Int vs AC. damage is 1d6+ Int mod attacks any creature that is adjacent to it on your turn. sustain minor. move action to move it a number of squares equal to your cha modifier. standard action to have it actively attack that round (otherwise without direction, it will just continue to attack whatever is next to it on your turn).
* a higher level version of the above thing that lets you create a number of undead equal to your wis modifier
* a power that lets you make a wall of undead that attack anything that starts it's turn next to it (int vs ac, 1d6+ Int mod damage)
* a close burst power that heals all your summoned creatures in the burst area
* some variation of cause fear
* some spell that temporarily increases your AC, fluff that says it makes your body strong like bone
* ranged bone attack that shatters on the primary target and does secondary attacks from the shards on all adjacent creatures to the target
* a utility spell that pretty much acts like tenser's floating disc, but the fluff is that a skeleton is carrying it for you like a mindless butler
* a spell that does extra damage to creatures with the undead keyword (if i can make you, then i can break you)
* a spell that gives regeneration to creatures with the undead keyword


I'm just making all this up off the top of my head .... my image of a necromancer may well be different than your own.
Damage/Attack/Etc amounts would need to be adjusted depending on what level power it is ....
blah blah blah disclaimer blah blah blah I'm sleepy blah blah blah yeah i know there are typeos and rambles

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think WotC just hasn't come up with a good solution for handling PC minions, yet. Each minion essentially gives the player extra actions, while increasing the length of her turn relative to the other players.

So, you don't go to market with the game you want, you go to market with the game you have?

Specialist mages (at least, the Illusionist) have been a part of the game for more than 30 years. Instead of waiting a few more months and getting it right the first time out, we're being forced to 1) wait, and 2) spend more money for 4Ed to give us some semblance of the increasing freedom of PC creation that has been a part of the evolution of the game.

IOW, its a half-baked recipe that could have used more cooking before being served to us, the consumer.