Players stuck is 2ed

[kamosa]

With your own wizard npc's, which were even worse? Cause that's about the only one who can do anything against a stone skinned, invisible wizard with 3d20 other protections up.

There were thousands of ways to crack a good mage. Antimagic stuff, creatures that could see invisible and had high magic resistance, Clerics of all types could attack them. High level creatures had high level abilities that countered the mage. I think I only ran two or three high level mages against the party in the years of gaming I did in 2E .

And what keeps you from doing that in 3e?

The cleric had a wider array of spheres to choose from in 2E. So, yeah, you could play a peaceful cleric in 3E, but you'd be pretty lame. In 2E, you could take some of the other spheres and be a fairly active/powerful character in the adventure

Sure, you won't get any broken benefits from a peace-priest kit from level 1 in 3e, but you aren't doing it for that extra bonus, are you?

I've seen pretty powerful combat cleric (he used the whole staple, usually as quickened spells: Divine Favour, Divine Power, Righteous might, Greater Magic Weapon) and a pretty powerful warrior type in the same game. And the warrior didn't have to hide behind the cleric. Not at all.

I didn't say the warrior cleric was the most powerful character. In fact I believe the fighter is the most powerful class in 3e/3.5E because of it's access to so many feats. I guess I don't understand that point.

You don't want to see it, and that's fine. I don't have any problems creating widely different characters of the same class in 3e (no matter what class that is), with different skills, feats, spells, and neither do a lot of people here on the board. Your problems to create 3e characters with diversity seems exactly that: your problem.

Wow, what a silly way to end your post. I say that I am only stating an opinion that we could disagree on, and you attack my creativity. Nice.

Well, at least I don't have to have everyone in the world agree with my point to make it valid. I don't have to tear other people down if they don't agree with me. I don't live in that black or white world where something is all bad or all good. Sorry it ruins your life that I don't think all the change in 3E were for the best. I'll try fall in line in the future. If you could post your manifesto or something, I'll try not to violate it.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

In one of my groups one of the players has been building his character from 1st to 15th level based on his memory of how a bladesinger was built in 2E.

So, we started at 1st level with complaints about why he couldn't use weapon finesse with a longsword (DM: "Um, you do realise there is a list of what weapons can be used with weapon finesse?" P: "Well a 2E bladesinger could use his Dex modifier with a longsword." DM: "Um, I don't recall whether or not that's the case but we are playing 3E.").

As the campaign progressed, the character simply became less and less effective due to repeated poor choices supposedly motivated memories of how such a character would progress in 2E. In fact, the build was so bad despite a rather generous 42-point point by for abilities and slightly above average equipment that the party's bard was significantly more useful... in non-city adventures and non-RP situations.

Why not simply accomodate him? Yes, by the rules you can't use weapon finesse with a longsword.

But personally, I don't see anything unbalancing with allowing it - and as the DM, you can change the rules. If it makes him happy to re-create a bladesinger, why not let him?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Why not simply accomodate him? Yes, by the rules you can't use weapon finesse with a longsword.

But personally, I don't see anything unbalancing with allowing it - and as the DM, you can change the rules. If it makes him happy to re-create a bladesinger, why not let him?

Yes, I don't see too much of a problem with that (but be sure te tell him he could use a rapier or elven thinblade as a bladesinger weapon, too). You only have to install the house rule that you can't power attack with a finesse'd weapon.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

There were thousands of ways to crack a good mage. Antimagic stuff, creatures that could see invisible and had high magic resistance, Clerics of all types could attack them. High level creatures had high level abilities that countered the mage. I think I only ran two or three high level mages against the party in the years of gaming I did in 2E .

And what about fighters? Rogues? IMO in D&D everyone should have a chance against everyone else (when they're on the same level). This is not rock-scissors-paper. We don't play Cleric-Wizard-Fighter.

The cleric had a wider array of spheres to choose from in 2E. So, yeah, you could play a peaceful cleric in 3E, but you'd be pretty lame.

Not really. I open the Cleric spell list and see lots of good spells for a pacifist cleric.

I didn't say the warrior cleric was the most powerful character. In fact I believe the fighter is the most powerful class in 3e/3.5E because of it's access to so many feats. I guess I don't understand that point.

You did say that people become clerics now to be better warriors.

Wow, what a silly way to end your post. I say that I am only stating an opinion that we could disagree on, and you attack my creativity. Nice.

You're right, that was a bit harsh. Sorry. Was a bit wound up.


But fact is, there are dozens of ways to make a character of any class unique. This is especially true for the four "base base classes" - fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric, but works well for the other classes, too. And it isn't just an opinion because I have seen such characters. I've seen a couple of wizards, and they were vastly different. I've seen fighters with completely different fighting styles. I've seen rogues fill a myriad of roles (most of them were my own character - I love the rogue), and seen clerics that you wouldn't associate with the same class if you didn't see it written on the sheet.
I'm not really saying that your creativity sucks. I just suspect you aren't trying too hard. Just take a look at the cleric spell list, at the skills and feats that could help such a character, and at the PrC's out there, and you'll see that you can create perfectly good pacifists in 3e. And combat clerics, and caster clerics, and archer clerics, and necromancer clerics.....

 

[lord_banus]

Well I seemed to have asked an interesting question and have received a lot of valuable replies. I'll just see if I can clarify the situation to answer some people's comments.

His main complaints center around the idea that dnd 3e has become more like a computer game just for the young folk to play. A lot of the times he gets upset is when he goes to use a spell and finds that it is a lot less powerful than he remembers or that it is easily overcome. I guess this comes from wizards being scaled back to being more in line with the other classes. I will also mention that this has been going on for over a year and for most of that time I have been adding new elements to the game like "Distinctions and Drawbacks" to appease him (my missus thinks I have the patience of a saint). The final straw came when I got a hold of his skills and powers books ( I hadn't read them up to this point) and realised that just about everything was do-able easily within 3e and the remainder could be done with Unearthed Arcana. He also brought someone along to our game that has the same view as him about the issue. Another issue that he raised was that he had a large collection of books that he is letting go to waste. Personally I think he is just finding any excuse to hang on to his old viewpoint.

He is a decent guy and to be fair he has tried to like 3e but he said that he couldn't do it anymore. I'm not sure if that means he is thinking of leaving the group or what but we are changing over to Oriental Adventures which will hopefully be enough of a change to break him out of it.

It seems pretty clear from the comments raised here that his viewpoint that 2nd ed was better than 3rd ed is in the minority so at least I know I am not going mad.

I'll guess we'll see what happens on Sunday. Stay tuned for the next installment of DnD: Generations.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I'll guess we'll see what happens on Sunday. Stay tuned for the next installment of DnD: Generations.

Good luck! It actually isn't THAT hard to find a 2E group. Maybe he'll find another 2 or 3 people in addition to his friend and then he can play 2E all he wants.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I will also mention that this has been going on for over a year and for most of that time I have been adding new elements to the game like "Distinctions and Drawbacks" to appease him (my missus thinks I have the patience of a saint). The final straw came when I got a hold of his skills and powers books ( I hadn't read them up to this point) and realised that just about everything was do-able easily within 3e and the remainder could be done with Unearthed Arcana.

So you did everything to make 3e seem more 2e and he still isn't content? Ungrateful guy, that.

He also brought someone along to our game that has the same view as him about the issue.

So they were like the two old guys from the Muppet Show? Personally, I think it really bad form to bring other ranters with you to harass the DM, who did everything to please you

Another issue that he raised was that he had a large collection of books that he is letting go to waste. Personally I think he is just finding any excuse to hang on to his old viewpoint.

He knew that from the start. I agree with you: He prefers 2e "just because" and there's probably no way for him to play.

I had a couple of these, too, but even some of them gave 3e a chance (until some women stories within the group made him leave).