Players Want To Be Led Around By The Nose and Have NPC's Do Everything For Them

[I'm A Banana]

Heh. I LOVE that 'white plane of death' idea....

Just make sure if you use it your players actually CAN think of a way out.

I've got a similar problem. It's not that my players are hack-and-slashers, they just enjoy the storyline too much to try and think outside of it. When I leave things up to them, they always take the obvious route.

I may have to try and pull that....hehehee.....

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Heh. I LOVE that 'white plane of death' idea....

Just make sure if you use it your players actually CAN think of a way out.

Well, depending on thier level and access to spells, it could be just as easy as "walk 100 paces". Its just something to get the PCs THINKING and not sitting around trying to outthink the DM. It works best if you don't actually PLAN how they should get out, and just let whatever they first(or second if you want to push your luck) try to succeed. If they're trying to outthink you...don't give them anything to outthink.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Actually, the first post says clearly that they are the majority.

Me? I couldn't DM a group like that and enjoy it. Sorry. This train's left the station. Find someone else.

I can't make a game fun for the players if I can't enjoy it myself, and players who are just there to kill some stuff and take it's stuff don't cut it for me anymore.

Doh, you're right, it does.

Well then, you're doomed. Quit DMing.

 

[Kichwas]

One of those problems that really doesn't have a nice canned answer...

How many people would be left if you tossed out all the problem players?

That's probably not a viable solution as most of us don't have waiting lists or game with people we feel too committed to. Sometimes though you just have to accept that your friends can't be your gaming buddies.

You may just have to seek out slow transition steps to move them over to a new way of thinking. I do a LOT of asking when I GM.

• What do you do now?
• What do you think of this?
• How does [PC name] feel about this?
• What do you plan to do next?
• What kind of food does [PC name] go for?
• So when you go into town, other then meeting the Wizard -where do you plan to go?

Ask a -lot- of leading questions. The kind that don't have a yes or no answer. This forces them to figure out an answer, and in time they will just start roleplaying.

Also toss out a lot of disconnected wierdness:

• The guy selling apples looks familiar.
• The barmaid winks at you.
• The kobold nursing a beer near the Bard's stage seems to be muttering in old draconic and moving twigs and stones about on his table.
• You get this funny feeling when you enter the woods.
• As the Orc charges you, he cals out your family name.
• When you wake up in the morning, all your possessions have been moved to where [second PC's name] possessions where, and hers to where yours where.

and so on...

This kind of stuff gets their attention, and unless they're log-toads they're going to start reacting to it. It doesn't have to make any sense or have any connection to the module or plot - but the questions they ask and the things they do once you toss it out will get some kind of ball rolling.


My other main tactic in GMing is the Spot check, my players tend to burn out dice on spot checks alone - I probably get ten to twenty of them out of each player per session in my Mutants and Masterminds game. It's a lot of fun to see people burn Hero Points on them. Spot checks and questions are how I write my scenerios. If they rolled high, I consider putting something there for them to see. The -what- being based on how they were answering the questions I asked earlier.

Another trick is to 'acidentally' read something that's meant for DM eyes only as if it were boxed text...

"The room has a chair, old maplewood desk, search DC 20 to see the key to the locked door under, oh! Ooops...."



The players will now have this guilty desire to all say they're checking out that desk... You've gotten them to do something, and you can pretend it was an accident. Chances are they will try to hide it by saying they're "searching everything in the area" or other little phrases they think are so clever - which will allow them to encounter what you really wanted them to get involved with.

 

[Thistleknot]

Thank you all for replying.

I guess I should clarify a few things that came up while I was out.

Going and finding another gaming group is not really a viable option. In addition to being fellow gamers, they're my friends, and I don't think quitting would go off well.

They're not "hack and slashers". That's the weird part. I could deal with it if they were "hack and slashers", that's cake. But they aren't. They're actually closer to Kamakaze Midget's players, which is why their behavior is just so baffling.

The problematic players are relatively new roleplayers. For two of them, its their second game ever, and one was a bit of a casual gamer before this. This is the first actual campaign they've been involved in.

I had a discussion with my girlfriend about this, and basically she said they're trying to outthink both me, and me my co-DM in Spycraft. They're convinced there's a right or wrong answer to things.

Is there a good way to convince them that there is no right or wrong way to do things? That indeed, when nothing is ventured, nothing is gained? (but not that harsh.)

Again, thank you all for your answers. I really do appreciate it.

 

[clark411]

One thing that I have to ask when this comes up is how you think you're doing at providing clues, stimulus, and descriptions of environments / people in those environments. If you know you're providing points of interest for players to go to, and the cast of characters is fleshed out, great.. but if you don't, realize that the player's resources are extremely limited.

Players won't go to the town fair to meet the special contact if they have no idea that the fair exists. Being proactive in your mind may have the players actively asking what's going on in town, but sometimes players don't even realize they have the option to do it. The mindset is somewhat automatic that sensory perceptions are a passive thing... that their characters will notice the bazaar without them saying "I'm looking around again!" everytime they go to town. Playing a videogame, or watching a television show, or reading a chessboard gives us information in a very different way from roleplaying- the moment communication shuts down on either side of the screen regarding the environment, its like a player's character is blinded, deafened, and the world drops out from beneath them so long as they're just going to "The Usual Bar" or "The Nearest Biggest Church" or "The Same Shop We Always Go To."

This issue may of course, have nothing to do with your problem.. but every time I've seen a player totally lost, it's usually due to a lack of input or leads (spawned by DM secrecy or a simple miscommunication of how things are found in game) rather than anything else.

That said..

Spycraft usually is a game about specific objectives and accomplishing them in the best way possible. That's what spies of the genre presented in the books do.. they blow up the station after going through multiple fire fights at close range and emerge unscathed from the big explosion with beautiful lady in left arm, martini in right arm, and submachine gun strapped to their back... and their hair isn't mussed... so it's no surprise if players go for that in their character's attitudes and aspirations.

If this isn't what you're going for, if you haven't already- spell it out for the players. Make it clear that the world is a world of shades rather than black and white. If you don't want to do this, make it clear in your NPCs that dish out plots, in villains, and in other agents. Have their leaders talk about making compromises, or "making the best of the situation," and minimizing losses. Have fellow agents talk about backup plans in case things go sour, as they always do.

Also, in Spycraft campaigns it's usually good to have at least the first mission or two in the campaign be extremely well defined in terms of mission goals and the parameters of action. If players begin with routine and things they MUST abide by.. it will spawn creative tendencies when they're given some freedom to make for interesting plans. If they are seen by their superiors as incapable of coming up with plans without ridiculing eachother, fit that right into the game... Take that meta thought of beating the situation and have Control confront them over this. Refer to the situation that agents are thrust into as a game, with lives being at stake.. make it clear that no one wins, no one lives forever (great pc game btw), etc.

Its a common theme in the espionage genre, games.

Additionally, the use of deadlines is helpful. "You have 5 hours to deal with this hostage situation in the X Building in France before the No Tolerance Act kicks in and the police swarm the building. Your flight will be leaving in 10 minutes, where you will meet up with other agents assigned to the case. The flight will be 20 minutes. I expect you to have a plan formulated by then." You then get an egg timer, set it to 20 minutes, and when the team meets you say "You all board the private jet." and then put the egg timer down and let the clock start ticking.

Alternatively, if they're just blatently metagaming, fold up your DM screen, get everyone's attention, and be explicit in your (and the system designers') lack of welcome for such talk and thought at the game table. Go "Shame shame shame on you all." and what.

 

[Desdichado]

Thank you all for replying.

I guess I should clarify a few things that came up while I was out.

Going and finding another gaming group is not really a viable option. In addition to being fellow gamers, they're my friends, and I don't think quitting would go off well.

They're not "hack and slashers". That's the weird part. I could deal with it if they were "hack and slashers", that's cake. But they aren't. They're actually closer to Kamakaze Midget's players, which is why their behavior is just so baffling.

The problematic players are relatively new roleplayers. For two of them, its their second game ever, and one was a bit of a casual gamer before this. This is the first actual campaign they've been involved in.

I had a discussion with my girlfriend about this, and basically she said they're trying to outthink both me, and me my co-DM in Spycraft. They're convinced there's a right or wrong answer to things.

Is there a good way to convince them that there is no right or wrong way to do things? That indeed, when nothing is ventured, nothing is gained? (but not that harsh.)

Again, thank you all for your answers. I really do appreciate it.

Well, that's a different problem. My wife's actually a bit that way, which is why she has a hard time playing RPGs -- they're too open-ended for her, and she's not comfortable not doing the "best" thing. I think there's a two pronged solution to this; first you need to give the players as much feedback about what's going on as possible. Drop them mondo descriptions, and make sure potential hooks of things to investigate are just dripping. Give them something they can latch onto. Of course, you may already be doing that, which brings us to the second prong.

There's a little game called Blood Bowl which, while not a roleplaying game, has a very clever mechanic that I've thought of implementing occasionally. You play with a timer. After four minutes, if you haven't finished your turn, too bad -- it ends exactly where you left off and anything you didn't get done is simply not done that turn. This keeps the game moving along, and keeps the "chess players" from just sitting and overanalyzing their potential moves.

Borrowing a page from this game, next time there's a big debate about the "right" thing to do, make it happen in character. While the players are sitting around debating what to do or not, the game world is moving on without them. That should get their attention back where it belongs and get them moving.

 

[Harlock]

Hmm. I can see both sides of this. I wish one of your players were here to answer to this in order to determine where the breakdown is. As a GM I often find that the game is about the players. Versatilty is a key. If they are trying to out think you then perhaps the solution isn't more options but rather fewer. Give them simple choices. Give them only two hooks. Give them lots of background from which to make a choice. Often times a GM has a clear cut picture of his campaign and storyline but by being mysterious and with holding information doesn't give out enough or enough of the right kind of clues. If the players are wandering all over the map desperately seeking something to do, a hook, a plot, a contact, then let them find it. Don't let a session go for a few hours with players getting frustrated and finally throwing their hands up and saying, "hook, please." While you may have a destination in mind, again, you already know the plot.

Sometimes as a GM it's hard to take yourself out of the story and think like a player would with their limited information. Drop hooks and reinforce important ones with supporting information. I don't mean serapate pieces of the same clue, I mean the exact same clue re-worded. While you know that some nation stockpiling food and a neighboring nation buying black market weapons because they are allies in a planned invasion in the future may be related, the players may never put that together and just think nation A is hungry and Nation B is paranoid. Players have to have solid redundant hooks in order to act sometimes.

One more thing. If you need to be direct in a game, how much more important is it to be direct in real life? The players talked to your girlfriend, how about you talk to your players. Ask them directly why they are frustrated. Ask them what you can do to alleviate their frustrations and make the game fun. As a GM the most fulfilling sessions are always the ones in which the players simply enjoy themselves. Even if it doesn't advance your metaplot, even if it doesn't really fit your style there is nothing better than looking over the screen at smiling faces enjoying what you've done for them.

 

[SnowDog]

Communication is key

Especially as these folks are your friends, you might want to just open up about it and get ideas flowing. For every situation like this there are at least two sides to the story, so hearing it from their point of view would probably help you in addition to them.

It's possible that something in the way your group is working has encouraged a feeling in these players that they have to do the Right Thing every time.

You could also take an approach to communicating about it where it isn't a complaint and isn't confrontational. Something like discussing what it is you like so much about RPGs, leading deliberately into how you love that the games aren't competitive but cooperative, or how there are so many open ways to solve problems, etc.

Is it possible your players are spending a lot of time playing Computer RPGs (where there often is only one Right Answer), and that the CRPG mentality is bleeding into their PnP gaming personas? If not CRPG, maybe a restrictive adventure that sort of bred them into this sort of feeling?

Just some ideas....