playing a paladin in world that is not black and white

[sniffles]

Paladin trouble usually seems to come down to conflict between the player and GM over interpretation of the paladin's code of honor. That's what this situation looks like to me.

I would suggest having a serious discussion with your GM about this issue. What are his expectations for your paladin? What does he think a code of honor means? What are your expectations and how do you interpret the code of honor? Before you can come to an agreement both of you need to know where you stand.

If you get the impression that your GM isn't going to be happy unless you run the character his way, then at that point I think you should hand him your character sheet and tell him to have fun running your character. I'm in agreement with Wolfwood2 that you should be able to run your character the way you feel that class should be run.

But hopefully it won't come to that and your GM will be willing to see things from your point of view.

 

[Elf Witch]

The situation is a hard one for the Cyreans. Their land was completely destroyed on the day of mourning. Then to add insult to injury they were left out of the peace talks and all the treaties, as a people their voice was silenced.

The prince is not recognized as the King even though he is the only survior of the royal family. The man is honorable trying to do what is best for his people. What he would like is to see the Mournlands fixed and restored to the cyrean people. But he also realizes that may never happen so he has plans to try and annex a portion of Breland and another nation to form a homeland for the Cyreans.

He is trying to do this by diplomatic means and he is grateful to the King of Breland for being the only one to willing take in these displaced people. But his people come first don't forget in the war the only coutry in the right was Cyre. The rest of the countries went against the righful ruler. Yet Cyre is the country that has suffered the worse.

This plot that was uncovered against the refugees is a deep one and several dragonmark houses and noble Breland houses maybe involved. At this point we don't know who to trust.

The man we are after is a highly decorated war hero in Breland he is a member of noble family. I have my doubts that he will get more than a hand slap for what he is done.

As a paladin who took oaths to protect the people of Cyre how do I just sit back and allow a man who has arranged the slaughter of innocent Cyreans to get off with just a hand slap?

If we can't trust the King of Breland to share the infomation he gets from this man freely with us how are we in postion to protect what is left of our people?

 

[Elf Witch]

Paladin trouble usually seems to come down to conflict between the player and GM over interpretation of the paladin's code of honor. That's what this situation looks like to me.

I would suggest having a serious discussion with your GM about this issue. What are his expectations for your paladin? What does he think a code of honor means? What are your expectations and how do you interpret the code of honor? Before you can come to an agreement both of you need to know where you stand.

If you get the impression that your GM isn't going to be happy unless you run the character his way, then at that point I think you should hand him your character sheet and tell him to have fun running your character. I'm in agreement with Wolfwood2 that you should be able to run your character the way you feel that class should be run.

But hopefully it won't come to that and your GM will be willing to see things from your point of view.

We did have a long talk about paladins and he did say that he would never punish a paladin for choosing the greater good over law. He also said that he agreed that my paladin would uphold the law of Cyre over any other country's law.

I think what is happening now is more a party a thing. He expected the party since they are all either lawful, neutral or chaotic good to be more willing to do thing fro the greater good not just for the money.

I think he may be worroed about the fallout this could cause and he has told me that he does not want my character to have to leave.

I also think he is being a little to rigid sine the party seems to be only intrested in money then he should simply have the The Cyrean King offer more money.

But then that might cause a problem for the other lawful good character, a cleric of the silver flame from Thrace who might view that as breaking their word.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

First, smack your DM (gently). Lawful =/= legal. It can't!

As for the Cyrish king not being "legitimate legal authority," I'm gonna call BS on that. He has only that power which is currently afforded to him by custom and by Breland not driving him out*, but he is still the King. The fact that he is a king without a throne does not rob him of his authority. He still has the power to sentence a man to death for murder.

As such, your duty is clear. Turn the culprit over to your king, if you can. If you can't, petition the Brelish forces (and the Brelish court, if required) for a chance to interview the criminal, as well. If nothing else, his mass-murdering spree should get your king or his agents an interview with the murderer.

* - This might be a more useful angle for you to use with your King. First, get your party involved on your side. Then, turn the target over to the Cyrish king, and make sure to inform him that Breland wants him, too. If your King wants to keep his base for reclaiming Cyre, he'll need to play nice with Breland. Convince your King (use those Diplomacy ranks!) that turning him over, after interviewing him, will be in everyone's best interests.

 

[billd91]

The man we are after is a highly decorated war hero in Breland he is a member of noble family. I have my doubts that he will get more than a hand slap for what he is done.

As a paladin who took oaths to protect the people of Cyre how do I just sit back and allow a man who has arranged the slaughter of innocent Cyreans to get off with just a hand slap?

So why not call him out? Settle the issue in honorable fashion. If you can take him down on the field of honor, then you've avenged your people. You can do this whether or not he gets a hand slap from Breland. In fact, it seems an appropriate recourse if he does get off lightly.

The thing with being a paladin is: methods matter. If the methods don't seem right, don't take them.

 

[Elf Witch]

So why not call him out? Settle the issue in honorable fashion. If you can take him down on the field of honor, then you've avenged your people. You can do this whether or not he gets a hand slap from Breland. In fact, it seems an appropriate recourse if he does get off lightly.

The thing with being a paladin is: methods matter. If the methods don't seem right, don't take them.

That is a good idea for afterwards but is still does not change the fact that we need information from him. He is not the head of the group doing these attacks.

I got an email today from the DM who told me that the player playing the cleric is going to multiclass into paladin who is going to swear an oath to the King of Breland. He left Thrace because he felt that there was no honor left there and he thinks he has found it in Breland. :\

I am thinking of just retiring the paladin and bringing in a different character maybe a rogue/cyrean avenger.

I am begining to find playing a paladin to be more work than fun.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Yeah, wow. That's obnoxious.

I think you and your DM need to get something straightened out: In the default D&D ruleset, paladins are Lawful Good, not (lawful) and (good). LG is a term of art, and in effect, it refers neither to law in the legislative/regulatory sense, nor to good in the purely relativist sense. Even though a denizen of Karrnath might think that it's "good" to partake in vampire blood feasts, that doesn't mean that it's Good. Likewise, just because the laws of Breland protect Breland's citizens from outlanders, doesn't mean that following them constitutes Lawful conduct.

Thus, while it is possible to have two paladins serving opposing powers, if one of those powers is "right" in the abstract D&D moral universe, and the other is wrong, then one of those paladins isn't going to be a paladin for very long. For example, if your Brelandish (?) paladin believes that protecting a man who has committed thousands of human rights violations and murders is "lawful" and "good"... well, he can go on believing that in character, but such conduct is neither Lawful nor Good in the D&D sense.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

...we had a paladin whose sister was sold into slavery because of a crime she did not commit. We tried to prove her innocence but were unable to.

Now slavery is legal in Kalamar so if the paladin went himself to get her out using other than legal means he would be breaking the law. He did try buying her but her owner (who set her up) would not sell her.

So the paladin did the gray thing he went to the Broken chain a group that is opposed to slavery and told them the story. He did not help with the planning or the freeing of this man's slaves he did not finance it nor did he see his sister after they freed her and sent her away.

The DMs decision was that in this case the paladin did not lose his ability because in this case good over ruled law.

See I don't think freeing the slaves would not have been lawful good. The law was being subverted by someone else. If he was so cunning or powerful to cover it up from the law of the land then the Paladin would have to fall back on upholding the lawfulgoodness of the multiverse. In which case allying with the Broken Chain would have been the lawfulgood thing to do. Of course correcting the law of the land would have been high on the agenda too.

Anyway, I don't think the issue at hand is much to do with paladins, black and whiteness, alignments, or any other thing. The issue I think is playing with a dm that is unsympathetic to your character's struggles.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

That is a good idea for afterwards but is still does not change the fact that we need information from him. He is not the head of the group doing these attacks.

I got an email today from the DM who told me that the player playing the cleric is going to multiclass into paladin who is going to swear an oath to the King of Breland. He left Thrace because he felt that there was no honor left there and he thinks he has found it in Breland. :\

I am thinking of just retiring the paladin and bringing in a different character maybe a rogue/cyrean avenger.

I am begining to find playing a paladin to be more work than fun.

Hmmm, is there a means that you can use to get information to the 'King in Exile' about this, so that he may be present when the miscreant is handed over to Breland's king? Use the cad as a political tool, and his crimes, once proven, to help wrest a bit more control for Cyre. Given that the Breland king gave sanctuary to the Cyre natives and king he has enough honor that having an audience might help.

The Auld Grump

 

[Elf Witch]

See I don't think freeing the slaves would not have been lawful good. The law was being subverted by someone else. If he was so cunning or powerful to cover it up from the law of the land then the Paladin would have to fall back on upholding the lawfulgoodness of the multiverse. In which case allying with the Broken Chain would have been the lawfulgood thing to do. Of course correcting the law of the land would have been high on the agenda too.

Anyway, I don't think the issue at hand is much to do with paladins, black and whiteness, alignments, or any other thing. The issue I think is playing with a dm that is unsympathetic to your character's struggles.

In our Kalamar game slavery is legal and people who are sold into it or either captured from wars or criminals.

The guy who bought was a devious SOB one of the best BBEG we ever went up against.

I think the DM is having issues with the other players he really wanted to tell a story dealing with Breland, Cyre and the aftermath of the war. All his plots deal with this. He told us this a ahead of time and yet I was the only one who made a character that fit this. The others had ideas they really wanted to try.

I think the DM needs to change his plot hooks or tell the players to mkae new characters.