Playing Dragon PCs

[doctorbadwolf]

So, I am building a game based on stories I’ve been writing since I was a little kid, and one of the oldest elements of the setting is dragons that are also humanoids, and can go back and forth between the two forms fairly often. (It’s tiring, so not at-will, but a few times a day would be fine)

I wonder if any game out there has ever done dragon PCs well? Specifically I mean dragon PCs in the same game as human PCs.

Anyone got any examples, or just wanna chat about draconic PC options?

The same game may have “dragon” riders, as well. Basically dragons with a body the size of a smallish horse, and enormous wingspan, and probably distinct from the folks who can be dragon or human, that bond with a person psychically and fight together.

In a D&D style game, this would be hard to balance, but my game is a bit looser, and you wouldn’t be able to start play as an “adult” or ancient dragon. As well, Human or other mortal player characters can attain power eventually that would be comparable to a “true” dragon.

Honestly it’s just a thread about dragon PCs and dragon riders, and dragons in games.

Thoughts?

 

[aramis erak]

AD&D had two settings where Dragon PC's were plausible, one of those they were implemented.
Council of Wyrms implemented them in AD&D 2E mechanics. I've never gotten it to table. It does include dual scale groups
Dragonlance would be a great setting to do so, but doesn't. It does, however, have some minimal rules for dragon riding. Likewise, rulse for dragon mounts exist in DL5A (which is non-D&D, but is DragonLance)

FFG had an RPG about dragons... Fireborn. PCs are cross-timing it; modern, they're usually a person; archaic, they're the big firebreathers. I've read, but not run, it.

 

[Ixal]

Rifts, both the Palladium and Savage versions have also dragons as PC option.
Not sure how well they work in Savage because of Thoughness scaling. Palladium is less concerned with balance and other options can be equally as powerful or more, so it should be possible to get a balanced game going with a bit of effort.
No idea if that is also possible in the Palladium setting.

Dragon riders while stereotypical do not really work in my opinion because technically the main protagonist is the dragon and not the rider. Its especially weird when the typical dragon rider uses a short ranged melee weapon like a sword.
Thats basically the fantasy version of this picture

A long weapon like a lance is at least workable, but still you would be better off with a ranged weapon but hardly any dragon rider in media/rpg uses one.
I quite liked the Temeraire book series because it breaks with many of the traditional dragon rider tropes in favour of things that makes more sense. Sadly I didn't penetrate into the RPG market.

 

[GMMichael]

Dragons can make excellent PCs. In fact, sometimes they are almost indistinguishable from human PCs:

Dragon character, level 5

Human character, level 5

This silver dragon has a 30-foot wingspan and a row of black spines down her back. She is a civilized dragon, having come of age in a community of scholarly, man-shaping dragons (which gives them the ability to speak and write). Her passion is art, and she strives to restore the great mountain-statue that once marked her home as the peak of civilization. Her dedication to her goal causes her to overlook opportunities, one of which is meeting with potential suitors. Physical: 8, Mental: 11, Metaphysical: 16 Skills: magic (float 4) -3 (3), magic (alter 1) 6 (1), artist 1 Perks: mystic ward, large size, armor training (natural), mana (20), owl's eye Gear: dragon scale d4, mystic ward d4, bite d4

It was rumored that this human had doppleganger somewhere in his bloodline, and he discovered the truth of it at the age of 12. His family thought him cursed, but an astute mage found it to be a blessing, so the mage took him in and taught him flight-magic and a protective ward in order to flee those who feared his gift. He still seeks the acceptance of his family but doesn't yet know it, and uses his drawing talent to garner attention that is ultimately unfulfilling. Physical: 8, Mental: 11, Metaphysical: 16 Skills: magic (float 4) -3 (3), magic (alter 1) 6 (1), artist 1 Perks: mystic ward, large size, armor training (natural), mana (20), owl's eye Gear: mage armor d4, mystic ward d4, punch/dagger d4

Different concepts, same character elements.

 

[GrahamWills]

So, I am building a game based on stories I’ve been writing since I was a little kid, and one of the oldest elements of the setting is dragons that are also humanoids, and can go back and forth between the two forms fairly often. (It’s tiring, so not at-will, but a few times a day would be fine)

I wonder if any game out there has ever done dragon PCs well? Specifically I mean dragon PCs in the same game as human PCs.

Thoughts?

I've run them in anime games with no issues; in fact it was pretty easy to build them as an alternative form; something anime games work well for. You might also use mecha rules to build them if you find a mecha system you like.

For me, the biggest issue is that of tone. Dragons are often portrayed as very different from humanoids, with different motivations and even ways of thinking. It would not be possible, for example, to handle humans and dragons from Le Guin's Earthsea world as PCs adventuring together.

But as long as you are OK with dragons being portrayed as essentially odd-shaped humans, it should be no issue. It's worked for elves!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

AD&D had two settings where Dragon PC's were plausible, one of those they were implemented.
Council of Wyrms implemented them in AD&D 2E mechanics. I've never gotten it to table. It does include dual scale groups
Dragonlance would be a great setting to do so, but doesn't. It does, however, have some minimal rules for dragon riding. Likewise, rulse for dragon mounts exist in DL5A (which is non-D&D, but is DragonLance)

FFG had an RPG about dragons... Fireborn. PCs are cross-timing it; modern, they're usually a person; archaic, they're the big firebreathers. I've read, but not run, it.

That is very interesting. I'd never heard of Fireborn.

Rifts, both the Palladium and Savage versions have also dragons as PC option.
Not sure how well they work in Savage because of Thoughness scaling. Palladium is less concerned with balance and other options can be equally as powerful or more, so it should be possible to get a balanced game going with a bit of effort.
No idea if that is also possible in the Palladium setting.

Yeah I will check those out.

Dragon riders while stereotypical do not really work in my opinion because technically the main protagonist is the dragon and not the rider.

Technically? I don't think that's technically or effectively true, necessarily. The main protagonists of the Dragonriders of Pern series are certainly not the dragons. Nor is How To Train Your Dragon. Hell, Kitiara isn't overshadowed by Skie in the Dragonlance novels (though, reading the wikipedia synopsis....I'd forgotten how cliche her whole "jilted lover convinced she will get her man if she kills her romantic rival" dynamic with Tanis and Laurana is. Gross.

A long weapon like a lance is at least workable, but still you would be better off with a ranged weapon but hardly any dragon rider in media/rpg uses one.
I quite liked the Temeraire book series because it breaks with many of the traditional dragon rider tropes in favour of things that makes more sense. Sadly I didn't penetrate into the RPG market.

It's also possible than any ranged weapon short of a high powered firearm would be useless while flying at high speeds. I could see lances and other polearms, though, for sure. A sword would be there for when you are off the dragon, though.

Although you could always just handwave the issues with missile weapons on the back of a flying creature.

I've run them in anime games with no issues; in fact it was pretty easy to build them as an alternative form; something anime games work well for. You might also use mecha rules to build them if you find a mecha system you like.

Interesting. I think I can see where you're coming from there.

For me, the biggest issue is that of tone. Dragons are often portrayed as very different from humanoids, with different motivations and even ways of thinking. It would not be possible, for example, to handle humans and dragons from Le Guin's Earthsea world as PCs adventuring together.

I'd think the issue there is more letting players play Earthsea dragons in the first place, not with also letting them play humans. Incredible differences in power within the narrative is only a problem in games that try to simulate a world rather than a type of story.

But as long as you are OK with dragons being portrayed as essentially odd-shaped humans, it should be no issue. It's worked for elves!

Eh the whole "alien mindset" thing is pretty overrated, IMO, so that certainly isn't an issue for me.

Heck, in Blue Rose you can play a sapient psychic animal.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

To add to the excellent suggestions above - troupe style play a la Ars Magica cold be useful here. Everyone has a dragon character and a dragon rider character but they excel in different areas of the story.

 

[Ixal]

Yeah I will check those out.

Be aware that Rifts is Science Fantasy, so you have dragons, plasma guns, giant robots, etc.
Palladium (the setting, not the system) is fantasy only from the same company.
Also the palladium rules (system) used for palladium (setting) and rifts are famous for being incomprehensible.

Technically? I don't think that's technically or effectively true, necessarily. The main protagonists of the Dragonriders of Pern series are certainly not the dragons. Nor is How To Train Your Dragon. Hell, Kitiara isn't overshadowed by Skie in the Dragonlance novels (though, reading the wikipedia synopsis....I'd forgotten how cliche her whole "jilted lover convinced she will get her man if she kills her romantic rival" dynamic with Tanis and Laurana is. Gross.

It's also possible than any ranged weapon short of a high powered firearm would be useless while flying at high speeds. I could see lances and other polearms, though, for sure. A sword would be there for when you are off the dragon, though.

Although you could always just handwave the issues with missile weapons on the back of a flying creature.

They don't overshadow the dragons when not riding them. But when they do you have to ignore that the dragon is actually the one in charge, especially when the rider is using melee weapons which are completely useless in most instances in combat.
And don't forget crossbows. When you do not have firearms they are better than bows for fighting on a dragon because you can hold the shot till you have a clear line of fire.

But as I mentioned above, I like the Temeraire solution the best

• Multiple people on the dragon.
• Using firearms to slowly whittle down other dragons and kill their crew.
• Formation flying is important.

Eh the whole "alien mindset" thing is pretty overrated, IMO, so that certainly isn't an issue for me.

Heck, in Blue Rose you can play a sapient psychic animal.

Another thing Temeraire does well. Dragons do not think like humans, but are not so alien as to be unrelatable.

 

[Blue]

There are asymmetric games like Ars Magica which has magicians (powerful) and various henchfolks (not). Would doing something similar with troupe play fit your needs, or do you want them all roughly balanced?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There are asymmetric games like Ars Magica which has magicians (powerful) and various henchfolks (not). Would doing something similar with troupe play fit your needs, or do you want them all roughly balanced?

Well, the power variance is definitely not usually that big, but balance isn't as tight as, say, 4e DnD.

I don't think troupe play concepts would work. Every PC is supposed to be a hero.