D&D 5E Playing non-healer clerics

[MichaelSomething]

How much healing does the average 5E party need anyway? If long rest Arn't being heavily restricted and/or adventuring days Arn't 7ish encounters long, do you really need a healing Cleric?

 

[DMZ2112]

You keep defining cooperation as "playing the game the way you want it played." How are you being cooperative?

What I want is cooperation. That is how I think the game should be played. They are the same thing. I am being cooperative by insisting upon cooperation. How can I make this clearer to you?

At the beginning of the thread, we had one guy saying, "I shouldn't have to heal just because I rolled a cleric." I didn't even disagree, I just said it didn't impress me as a choice. I honestly didn't even think he was serious about never healing. But every post in favor since has doubled down. So yeah, I kind of feel like there's a point here that has to be made.

It's a cooperative game. Cooperate. The sanctity of character concept is the least important thing at the table.

I'm not going to apologize for expecting that players consider other players during play. I can't even believe I have to say that.

 

[Irlo]

What I want is cooperation. That is how I think the game should be played. They are the same thing. I am being cooperative by insisting upon cooperation. How can I make this clearer to you?

At the beginning of the thread, we had one guy saying, "I shouldn't have to heal just because I rolled a cleric." I didn't even disagree, I just said it didn't impress me as a choice. I honestly didn't even think he was serious about never healing. But every post in favor since has doubled down. So yeah, I kind of feel like there's a point here that has to be made.

It's a cooperative game. Cooperate. The sanctity of character concept is the least important thing at the table.

I'm not going to apologize for expecting that players consider other players during play. I can't even believe I have to say that.

I fully agree that cooperation is important. But I fully disagree with the notion that cooperation = casting healing spells.

 

[DMZ2112]

I fully agree that cooperation is important. But I fully disagree with the notion that cooperation = casting healing spells.

I don't think you or anyone else gets to redefine the term that selectively. If it is possible for circumstances to arise where cooperation requires healing, and you refuse to heal in all circumstances, it follows that there are circumstances in which you will not be cooperative.

 

[Irlo]

I don't think you or anyone else gets to redefine the term that selectively. If it is possible for circumstances to arise where cooperation requires healing, and you refuse to heal in all circumstances, it follows that there are circumstances in which you will not be cooperative.

Right. That’s the disagreement. I don’t think that circumstances ever arise where cooperation requires healing. There are lots of ways to cooperate.

 

[DMZ2112]

Right. That’s the disagreement. I don’t think that circumstances ever arise where cooperation requires healing. There are lots of ways to cooperate.

You're entitled to that belief, if it suits you, but I don't think anyone can categorically state with authority that there is always a better (more cooperative) substitute for healing in every circumstance arising in D&D5. There is some degree of requirement by the other players at the table at which my position is sound, and if it is sound at any degree of requirement, it is sound.

Refusing to use a class ability out of preference when that class ability would be useful to the group is uncooperative.

 

[Irlo]

Refusing to use a class ability out of preference when that class ability would be useful to the group is uncooperative.

Well, we have a fundamental disagreement that won’t be resolved here. I’m curious though if your reasoning stops with healing spells. What other spell selections should a cleric make in order to play the game with an acceptable level of cooperation?

If I refuse to cast animate dead when it would be advantageous to the party, am I uncooperative? Who decides what is the best (most cooperative) complement of spells?

I’d rather leave that judgement to the player.

 

[DMZ2112]

Well, we have a fundamental disagreement that won’t be resolved here.

In a weird, exhausted way I am deeply grateful to you for acknowledging this.

I’m curious though if your reasoning stops with healing spells. What other spell selections should a cleric make in order to play the game with an acceptable level of cooperation?

Dammit, not this again. We were so close.

If I refuse to cast animate dead when it would be advantageous to the party, am I uncooperative? Who decides what is the best (most cooperative) complement of spells?

I’d rather leave that judgement to the player.

It is absolutely up to the player. I've never in my life told a player what spells to memorize unless they've asked for guidance, as either a dungeon master or as a fellow player. If I saw my players doing this, I would criticize them for it. Have done, come to think of it.

It's not about players or dungeon masters dictating other PCs' actions, it's about players circumscribing their own actions at the expense of their fellow players.

So no, it is not appropriate (or cooperative) for anyone to tell the cleric to memorize Animate Dead because the group needs it.

But if the group needs Animate Dead, and asks the cleric to memorize it, and the cleric refuses, YES, that's uncooperative behavior.

Now, your clever use of Animate Dead has made me realize there are clear exceptions. If the cleric is a Life or Light cleric, the party shouldn't ask, because expecting a cleric to anger their god and give up their powers is itself uncooperative. And by extension, a Death cleric shouldn't be asked to heal, either.

But that's a solitary, isolated case.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

You're entitled to that belief, if it suits you, but I don't think anyone can categorically state with authority that there is always a better (more cooperative) substitute for healing in every circumstance arising in D&D5. There is some degree of requirement by the other players at the table at which my position is sound, and if it is sound at any degree of requirement, it is sound.

Refusing to use a class ability out of preference when that class ability would be useful to the group is uncooperative.

Equally... telling a player during session zero "You are not allowed to have a cleric who doesn't cast healing spells" is uncooperative.

 

[DMZ2112]

Equally... telling a player during session zero "You are not allowed to have a cleric who doesn't cast healing spells" is uncooperative.

Absolutely no one has proposed doing this.