D&D 5E Playing non-healer clerics

[Oofta]

The whole comment is good advice and I think most people are fair about it. I remember this part above specifically from a convention I played in 30+ years ago when I was a middle-schooler. The table had one older person than us and he kept saying the tactical thing all of our PCs would do instead of asking us to do it or letting us play the way we wanted. He would tell the DM that the thief will sneak around back and the mage will cast such and such. Not sure if he was trying to make the convention game fit in the allotted time or if he felt the 'kids' could not play, but it always stuck with me. I remember telling the DM that my PC was not doing what he said and that I was going to do something else. The DM seemed to catch on and then asked everyone what they were doing and things went fine from what I remember.

Which I agree with. I play with new players and will offer advice, but also let them know that when/if it gets annoying to let me know. In addition, we do discuss tactics during play at times.

But there's a big gap between offering advice and discussing options and telling people what to do.

 

[DMZ2112]

Perhaps we can agree that "cooperative" looks different for different groups.

I can agree that groups put different levels of emphasis on cooperation, and that the fact that we all play the game differently is a strength of the community. Not sure I'm willing to close that triangle, though.

Edit: Also, healing is not a "class ability" for clerics.

Hair splitting.

So, actually, does every other class if your campaign uses feats.

This position is and has always been incomprehensible. I can armor tank as a wizard thanks to feats; that doesn't make armor tanking a function of wizards.

 

[Oofta]

I can agree that groups put different levels of emphasis on cooperation, and that the fact that we all play the game differently is a strength of the community. Not sure I'm willing to close that triangle, though.


Hair splitting.


This position is and has always been incomprehensible. I can armor tank as a wizard thanks to feats; that doesn't make armor tanking a function of wizards.

The problem is that you keep redefining cooperation. Cooperation does not mean adhere to your predefined ideas of what a cleric should focus on.

 

[ECMO3]

Of course not.

Most players do not require a rule mandating cooperation in order to engage in it.

I can cooperate without taking heqling spells.

The question is why do I have to heal, not why do Ihave to cooperate.

No, that conclusion does not logically follow from what I wrote at all. To reiterate, I said:

"...a properly played D&D character accepts that there may be cases where any one of these four spells in the set associated with their class may be useful and necessary."

Yes, so if as one of the players at the table I decide that the 4 spells I metioned (LTH, Catnap, Fly and SWD) are "necessary". Then you have to take those 4. You can't get Fireball, even though you are an evocation wizard, because if you do you are being selfish and not cooperating.

have addressed this adequately, as have other posters in the thread. What you are describing is a build design choice for any character class that does not have healing spells on its spell list. By contrast, no matter what build design choices a cleric makes, they cannot divest themselves of the ability to cast healing spells.

Not true. The Wizard class includes ASIs where you can select a feat. That is part of the class, and those feats include the ability to get healing. Wizards cannot divest themselves of the ability to get healing spells. It is actually part of the class unless you are at one of the very rare tables that do not allow feats.

Now you can choose not to take a feat that enables healing, just like I can choose not to prepare spells that do not enable healing, but in either case it is a choice not to get healing spells when they are available.

I won't stop repeating this argument, because it gets to the central tenant of my issue - you expect the Cleric to heal, but you do not expect other classes, all of which have access to healing, to heal.

 

[ECMO3]

This position is and has always been incomprehensible. I can armor tank as a wizard thanks to feats; that doesn't make armor tanking a function of wizards.

If the player playing the Wizard expects someone to tank and no one else at the table wants or thinks we need to tank, then yes he should build his character to tank and a Wizard can actually tank very, very well with the right race, feat and subclass selections - actually better than any cleric available and taken to the extreme better than a Paladin or Fighter as well.

 

[MichaelSomething]

If you really need non cleric healing, just bring back the wand of cute light wounds from 3E.

 

[ECMO3]

What I want is cooperation. That is how I think the game should be played. They are the same thing. I am being cooperative by insisting upon cooperation. How can I make this clearer to you?

Cooperation: The process of working together to the same end.

Telling someone else what role they need to fill is not cooperating. It is the opposite of cooperating. Taking the contributions of others and then making your own contributions such that they complement the whole is cooperating.

To elaborate on your example in another post - if you are playing a Wizard in a party and there needs to be a tank when there isn't one; taking feats, False Life and abjurations as a Wizard so someone can fill the missing tank role would be an example of cooperating. Telling the Fighter he has to assume the role of tank because he is a fighter and you don't want to do it as a Wizard is not cooperating. It is being selfish and bullying other players IMO.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't think you or anyone else gets to redefine the term that selectively. If it is possible for circumstances to arise where cooperation requires healing, and you refuse to heal in all circumstances, it follows that there are circumstances in which you will not be cooperative.

Cooperation may theoretically require healing some time, but it will never require that a cleric heal especially since many parties have no cleric at all.

 

[ECMO3]

Refusing to use a class ability out of preference when that class ability would be useful to the group is uncooperative.

Healing others is only a class ability for a Paladin. It is a choice which must be taken to an exclusion of another choice for every other class.

 

[DMZ2112]

All right, all right. I agree to disagree. Irlo is right, none of us are getting anywhere. This has been fun; I appreciate everyone's candor.