• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

[Playtest 2] HP thresholds

bbjore

First Post
Add me to the list of people who likes the idea of two varied effects. For instance a death spell could do so much hp damage on a failed save and if the monster's remaining HP are above a threshold it is weakened (or the equivalent) until the end of its next turn, if its remaining are below the threshold then it dies. It's useful for the BBEG & can potentially kill him if used right, but it will still instakill a standard monster which is completely appropriate.

In my opinion, if you're going to have a HP mechanic to determine how close a monster is to being defeated why not use it? Let the party whittle down the BBEG so it can be disintegrated by the wizard.

Another option I have played with in past games as a house rule is to severely adjust saves so that it is much easier to save vs. a spell, but a spell that doesn't work isn't lost. For instance, if it takes the fighter with a 75% hit chance three hits to kill a monster (assume four rounds to death), make it so the monster only has a 25% chance of failing its save vs. that petrification spell (again four rounds to death). But this was pretty hard to do in previous editions, it might be even harder to do with bounded accuracy and varying classes of monsters likes standards and elites.

I do, however, love the idea of an at-will petrification, polymorph, or other instant kill spell that the wizard just spams doing no damage over 2-4 rounds until it works though. It makes it feel like the fighter is engaged in a deadly battle of blades while the wizard stands there engaged in a prolonged battle to impose his arcane will upon his opponent. It works at the Vancian level too, just make a spell sustainable with an action on subsequent turns.

I like the HP threshold because it is faster, but the reduced save chance has less metagame issues and really reinforces the idea of a caster being about concentrating until they have imposed their will. Its less effective vs. mooks though, it might be worth adjusting saves based on the level difference between the caster and the target.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Badapple

First Post
One potential problem I see with damage thresholds is if as a DM I am running bad guys with these kinds of powers.

Since as a DM I know what all my players' current hp and max hp is, I'll know which PCs will be affected and which won't. Sure, I have to try to rp the monster/npc and not use this knowledge abusively... but this is the monsters' schtick and they are going to use it reasonably effectively.

Potential problems:

Say I've got a demon with some kind of death spell he can use 1x day. This creature is intelligent, figures the party that is challenging him is tough enough to resist it. So he has his minions bash on the party for a while, maybe spends a round or two doing damage himself. At what point is he going to risk using his power? Now I have to try to be fair to the players, but at the same time I as the DM know the party's hp...

Wizard PCs are going to be hit with 3x as many spell effects... reasonably smart bad guys will know they have the lowest hp, certainly the lowest max hp. Same for any other PCs with low hp.

If it gets switched to current instead of max hp, it will be a form of "piling on" to already battered PCs. For example... lets say I'm running a fight with the aforementioned demon and a few minions. One of the PCs gets hit twice or crit by the melee minions and loses a fair amount of hp. Blam, now on top of that he'll be the one hit by the death spell, because the bad guy spellcaster can make the reasonable deduction (even though it's a certainty because as a DM I know the hp totals of the party) that this PC will be subject to the spell effect, wheras he won't be sure (even if as the DM I am sure) that his spell would work on a different party member. This pc might feel cheated "Hey... first I get hit and crit by these guys now I'm instakilled with no save??? this sucks"

Idk, I think the hp thresholds have some good points, especially if it is a PC using it on an enemy. But there's definately a lot of concern out there. When it comes to monsters using them on PCs I'd almost always rather there be some kind of save involved rather than an autoeffect depending on the PC's hp.
 

Thraug

First Post
Badapple, great observations, but is it possible that your situations (going after the perceived "weak" target and piling on) makes for better gameplay? I think you convinced me that HP thresholds are a good idea, here's why:


  • As a DM you won't always pileon or the game becomes predictable
  • Is it not wise, and thematic, for both players and monsters to attack what they feel is the most vulnerable target or biggest threat?
  • Knowing the above, doesn't this give the "defender" character more weight and responsibility in being good at what he is there to do?
  • Combat tension will certainly rise when players know they are close to a dangerous threshold. "Oh no, I'm getting weak over here and the Medusa is keying in on me!! I better take defensive actions or I'm a Stoner!!". I like this.
For mechanics, I'm a firm believer in finding the most elegant and painless/quick mechanic for almost everything in a RPG so why not keep it as simple as:

  • Every spell with a BOOM effect (Sleep, Finger of Death, Medusa Gaze, Wight drain, etc) has two effects, the powerful one one when the target is bloodied (<50% HP) and another one when he isn't? This will generate all of the interesting situations mentioned above and the mechanics are simple to use, track, and remember.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
One potential problem I see with damage thresholds is if as a DM I am running bad guys with these kinds of powers.

Since as a DM I know what all my players' current hp and max hp is, I'll know which PCs will be affected and which won't. Sure, I have to try to rp the monster/npc and not use this knowledge abusively... but this is the monsters' schtick and they are going to use it reasonably effectively.

Potential problems:

Say I've got a demon with some kind of death spell he can use 1x day. This creature is intelligent, figures the party that is challenging him is tough enough to resist it. So he has his minions bash on the party for a while, maybe spends a round or two doing damage himself. At what point is he going to risk using his power? Now I have to try to be fair to the players, but at the same time I as the DM know the party's hp...

Wizard PCs are going to be hit with 3x as many spell effects... reasonably smart bad guys will know they have the lowest hp, certainly the lowest max hp. Same for any other PCs with low hp.

If it gets switched to current instead of max hp, it will be a form of "piling on" to already battered PCs. For example... lets say I'm running a fight with the aforementioned demon and a few minions. One of the PCs gets hit twice or crit by the melee minions and loses a fair amount of hp. Blam, now on top of that he'll be the one hit by the death spell, because the bad guy spellcaster can make the reasonable deduction (even though it's a certainty because as a DM I know the hp totals of the party) that this PC will be subject to the spell effect, wheras he won't be sure (even if as the DM I am sure) that his spell would work on a different party member. This pc might feel cheated "Hey... first I get hit and crit by these guys now I'm instakilled with no save??? this sucks"

Idk, I think the hp thresholds have some good points, especially if it is a PC using it on an enemy. But there's definately a lot of concern out there. When it comes to monsters using them on PCs I'd almost always rather there be some kind of save involved rather than an autoeffect depending on the PC's hp.

I definitely think it should be current hp instead of maximum hp (prior to reading this thread I actually believed that to be the case).

The solution to being instakilled with no save after being crit twice is simple. Death effects (as well as other pseudo-death effects such as paralysis and sleep) should always grant a saving throw. However, I definitely see advantages to making creatures above the threshold immune (they might, instead, have to save versus a lesser condition).

The danger of focus fire will still exist, of course, but it's always existed. Would a 3e mage rather send a flurry of magic missiles against the full hp fighter, or a rogue who just suffered a critical hit? However, now instead of full hp creatures being the best choice for death effects (biggest bang for your buck), it is instead those who are already weakened who become the targets of choice. Which, in my opinion, would be a great improvement to both versimilitude and gameplay.
 

slobo777

First Post
Say I've got a demon with some kind of death spell he can use 1x day. This creature is intelligent, figures the party that is challenging him is tough enough to resist it. So he has his minions bash on the party for a while, maybe spends a round or two doing damage himself. At what point is he going to risk using his power? Now I have to try to be fair to the players, but at the same time I as the DM know the party's hp...

I think we'll see monster powers like that be their own thing and not use the spell lists. In general will be more like 4E monster power design. So the "death spell" would probably do a large amount of random damage and have some special effects (that might depende on how badly hurt that made the PC).

. . . although I guess 2E and 3E style monsters with "and can also cast spells a 10th level Sorerer" would still be a problem
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
One potential problem I see with damage thresholds is if as a DM I am running bad guys with these kinds of powers.

Since as a DM I know what all my players' current hp and max hp is, I'll know which PCs will be affected and which won't. Sure, I have to try to rp the monster/npc and not use this knowledge abusively... but this is the monsters' schtick and they are going to use it reasonably effectively.

This is another reason to have a random element to the HP threshold, such as "Roll 2d6 + 6. If the result is greater than the target's current hit points..." This way, it's not a flat threshold. There's a range where a character may or may not be within the threshold.
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
I like current hp thresholds because it reconciles hp as an abstract measure of ability to not die with save or die/disable spells. It also limits the swinginess of high level combat.
 

steenan

Adventurer
I love the HP thresholds as an idea, but don't like the implementation.

The main reason for using the thresholds is tying magical SoD effects to the HP track (aka "how far am I from losing" track). This way, powerful spells need other characters' efforts, instead of making them meaningless.

A secondary gain is the ability to give spells significant effects against weak opponents, without letting them one-shot bosses.

A HP threshold system that would satisfy me would:
- Use only current HP, never maximum HP
- Use a variable threshold (like: "against targets with HP less than 3d6+10, ...") to avoid metagaming monster HPs and to introduce an element of risk
- Give spells minor effects against monsters above the threshold, so that the spell that hits too powerful enemy is not completely wasted (eg. Dominate dazes for a single round, save negates)

One more thing that can be done and goes well with HP thresholds is giving spells extreme effects against weak creatures that are no challenge anyway, to let casters feel powerful without unbalancing the game. This part could use hit dice/levels or total HPs. Example: Dominate is permanent when used on 1st level targets.
 


Remove ads

Top