D&D (2024) Playtest Druid and Paladin One D&D survey is live.

[Parmandur]

How? There is one single 3 round encounter that day. How does that 5th level paladin use them all up?

But wizards can use just as many things and pretty much all of them are better than a smite. Your notion that this is balanced because they are limited to the same number as spellcasters is fatally flawed.

Which is quite frankly, stupid. WotC should never have balanced the game around that many encounters in such a short period of time.

Additionally, one thing you seem to be missing is that a change like this allows WotC to loosen up the balance of an "Adventure Day" by smoothing out performance between Classes without affecting overall balance.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

This is getting to be a bit of a strange argument on both sides, IMO.

I definitely agree that 6-8 encounters in a day is ridiculously high. I expect "most" tables are somewhere in the 3 encounter range, give or take 2.

However, I think that if you have less encounters, they generally last more rounds. I can't imagine a Paladin not being able to use up their spell-slots to smite, even with the new restrictions. And if they do have a few slots, well, they'll just be able to use them for spells.

I may be missing something, but the only thing the "nerf" seems to do (AFAICT) is to stop the Pally from blowing multiple smites in the same round. They can still smite every round if they like, which is some pretty darn good damage output. I'm not sure any class is designed to blow a spell slot every single round.

If you only have 1 encounter in a day, and it only lasts 3 rounds, NOBODY is going to use up much of their resources. I don't see why the paladin should have to be able to blow all its resources in that timeframe.

 

[Parmandur]

This is getting to be a bit of a strange argument on both sides, IMO.

I definitely agree that 6-8 encounters in a day is ridiculously high. I expect "most" tables are somewhere in the 3 encounter range, give or take 2.

However, I think that if you have less encounters, they generally last more rounds. I can't imagine a Paladin not being able to use up their spell-slots to smite, even with the new restrictions. And if they do have a few slots, well, they'll just be able to use them for spells.

I may be missing something, but the only thing the "nerf" seems to do (AFAICT) is to stop the Pally from blowing multiple smites in the same round. They can still smite every round if they like, which is some pretty darn good damage output. I'm not sure any class is designed to blow a spell slot every single round.

If you only have 1 encounter in a day, and it only lasts 3 rounds, NOBODY is going to use up much of their resources. I don't see why the paladin should have to be able to blow all its resources in that timeframe.

A Paladin Smiting multiple times per round is something I've seen the designers call out as something that made it to print by accident, but was felt to be too big to errata away with anything less than a dull overhaul.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If a table wants to really see Class balance, then they.have to push the adventure day. If there is only one 3 round combat in a day, nobody is being pushed to show their stuff, but now a Paladin is limited in breaking the game for 1 encounter out of 6-8.

This is why I disagree with the entire direction of the design. Depending on the work day for balance makes what supposed to be the fun part of the game into busywork.

 

[Maxperson]

If a table wants to really see Class balance, then they.have to push the adventure day. If there is only one 3 round combat in a day, nobody is being pushed to show their stuff, but now a Paladin is limited in breaking the game for 1 encounter out of 6-8.

If he's expending everything to "break" 1 encounter out of 6-8, then he hasn't broken a single thing. He's going to be much weaker in 5-7 more encounters balancing things out.

That's a different question, and one that isn't changing anytime soon. Given the balance of the game as is, thisnis just nailing down a proud nail that they missed in playtestijg leading to 2014, and doesn't change the balance in a full day.

It was a statement, not a question. And balance wasn't broken before with the paladin. It all evened out if you had a full adventuring day.

 

[mellored]

If he's expending everything to "break" 1 encounter out of 6-8, then he hasn't broken a single thing. He's going to be much weaker in 5-7 more encounters balancing things out.

It was a statement, not a question. And balance wasn't broken before with the paladin. It all evened out if you had a full adventuring day.

And now it will be more even for both a short or long day.

 

[Maxperson]

A Paladin Smiting multiple times per round is something I've seen the designers call out as something that made it to print by accident, but was felt to be too big to errata away with anything less than a dull overhaul.

And a dull overhaul this is turning out to be!

 

[Parmandur]

This is why I disagree with the entire direction of the design. Depending on the work day for balance makes what supposed to be the fun part of the game into busywork.

I mean, that's been the balancing principle for a decade, and it doesn't seem to be changing in the foreseeable future.

If he's expending everything to "break" 1 encounter out of 6-8, then he hasn't broken a single thing. He's going to be much weaker in 5-7 more encounters balancing things out.

Exactly! That's why this isn't a change at the full Adventure day...but a Paladin in a table which only does 1-3 Encounters will mote predictably perform the same as a Paladin at a table that does the full day.

It was a statement, not a question. And balance wasn't broken before with the paladin. It all evened out if you had a full adventuring day

Exactly, and it isn't changed in a full layout, this just nips the unintended nova possibility in the bud.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean, that's been the balancing principle for a decade, and it doesn't seem to be changing in the foreseeable future.

They're having an open playtest.

If begging for some semblance of improvement to the chassis of the game is ever appropriate, it's now.

Like Elrond begging for the ring to be thrown into the fire, I was here last time they had the opportunity and turned their back at the last moment.

 

[Maxperson]

Exactly! That's why this isn't a change at the full Adventure day...but a Paladin in a table which only does 1-3 Encounters will mote predictably perform the same as a Paladin at a table that does the full day.

No. No he won't. He will be undercut by this nerf. If he has enough slots to last 6-8 encounters, then he's not going to be using them up in 1-3. You can't have it both ways.

Exactly, and it isn't changed in a full layout, this just nips the unintended nova possibility in the bud.

The nova wasn't an issue if you played the game as intended.