D&D (2024) Playtest Druid and Paladin One D&D survey is live.

[Micah Sweet]

Do you have data that shows that...?

Do  you think most tables run 6-8 encounters a day?

 

[Maxperson]

So, even for a random small sample of Redditors (whichbis a flawed pool in so many ways), still most don't say that...?

That is incorrect. Most in that poll do in fact say that. 1 on average = 918, 1-2 = 3k, 2-3 =2.1k Only 990 out of approximately 6200 run 3+ encounters per day. And of those 990 there will be some that run 4 or 5, which is still less than the 6-8 for an adventuring day.

 

[Parmandur]

That is incorrect. Most in that poll do in fact say that. 1 on average = 918, 1-2 = 3k, 2-3 =2.1k Only 990 out of approximately 6200 run 3+ encounters per day. And of those 990 there will be some that run 4 or 5, which is still less than the 6-8 for an adventuring day.

Yeah, OK, main poiijhere is that the sampling has some "Dewey Wijs Election!" headline potential. Totally irrelevant sampling.

And the main point is still that this isn't a change to the Paladin at the point of balance (a full Adventure Day), but it does change the tempo so that a group that doesn't play a balanced game will see behavior from a Paladin in line with expectations for a full day in microcosm...juat like every other Class. If they want the Paladin to shine fully, play a full day.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, OK, main poiijhere is that the sampling has some "Dewey Wijs Election!" headline potential. Totally irrelevant sampling.

And the main point is still that this isn't a change to the Paladin at the point of balance (a full Adventure Day), but it does change the tempo so that a group that doesn't play a balanced game will see behavior from a Paladin in line with expectations for a full day in microcosm...juat like every other Class. If they want the Paladin to shine fully, play a full day.

In line with expectations still = nerf, which is all I said.

As for having to play a full day to have the paladin shine fully, I completely disagree with that. They shouldn't be forced to play the game in a way that is unfun for them in order to have the class do what it is supposed to do. Better to house rule the paladin to allow it to be better in a low number of encounters per adventuring day setting.

Edit: I'm also not sure who else you would sample other than DMs. 6200 DMs from around the country/world seems pretty okay. Not the absolute best, but not a farce like you are implying.

 

[Parmandur]

In line with expectations still = nerf, which is all I said.

As for having to play a full day to have the paladin shine fully, I completely disagree with that. They shouldn't be forced to play the game in a way that is unfun for them in order to have the class do what it is supposed to do. Better to house rule the paladin to allow it to be better in a low number of encounters per adventuring day setting.

Edit: I'm also not sure who else you would sample other than DMs. 6200 DMs from around the country/world seems pretty okay. Not the absolute best, but not a farce like you are implying.

DMs on Reddit? Come on.

The Paladin has the exact same number of Smites a day, so it's not a difference at the level of balance. Every other Class with Slots has similar gates already, so this just puts the Paladin on the same footing per Encounter as everyone else without changing the overall balance. Again, any group that plays 1-3 Encounters is bypassing balance anyways.

 

[Maxperson]

DMs on Reddit? Come on.

The Paladin has the exact same number of Smites a day, so it's not a difference at the level of balance.

I'm really not sure how you can claim that. If they can't use them all, it is in fact a difference at the level of balance. It is completely dependent on the number of encounters the group has.

Every other Class with Slots has similar gates already, so this just puts the Paladin on the same footing per Encounter as everyone else without changing the overall balance. Again, any group that plays 1-3 Encounters is bypassing balance anyways.

Really? Compare the paladin to the wizard. Tell me how 3d8 on a single swing to a single monster with a 2nd level slot at 5th level compares with 8d6 against every monster in a 20 foot radius with a 3rd level slot? Both are using their best limited combat ability that they just received. Seems to me that the paladin is losing out a lot. Hell, the wizard even still does damage with a miss(save) against all those creatures. How much damage does the paladin do with a miss?

Being gated at the same rate per round as another class =/= balanced with that class. There's more to balance than that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

DMs on Reddit? Come on.

The Paladin has the exact same number of Smites a day, so it's not a difference at the level of balance. Every other Class with Slots has similar gates already, so this just puts the Paladin on the same footing per Encounter as everyone else without changing the overall balance. Again, any group that plays 1-3 Encounters is bypassing balance anyways.

Again, do  you see a lot of tables playing 6-8 encounters a day? If not, I don't see how you can't conclude the concept is flawed at this point.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm really not sure how you can claim that. If they can't use them all, it is in fact a difference at the level of balance. It is completely dependent on the number of encounters the group has.

They can use them all in a day, which is again how the game is balanced. Yes, having fewer encounters means people can use stuff less. I also ex0ect we will see Warlock and Monk unchained from Short Rest dependency, on the other end, but that won't change the balance as su h even if individual tables that stomped on Short Rests would interpret that wrongly as a buff.

Really? Compare the paladin to the wizard. Tell me how 3d8 on a single swing to a single monster with a 2nd level slot at 5th level compares with 8d6 against every monster in a 20 foot radius with a 3rd level slot? Both are using their best limited combat ability that they just received. Seems to me that the paladin is losing out a lot. Hell, the wizard even still does damage with a miss(save) against all those creatures. How much damage does the paladin do with a miss?

Being gated at the same rate per round as another class =/= balanced with that class. There's more to balance than that.

Yes, there's a full Advebture day.

 

[Maxperson]

They can use them all in a day, which is again how the game is balanced.

How? There is one single 3 round encounter that day. How does that 5th level paladin use them all up?

Yes, having fewer encounters means people can use stuff less.

But wizards can use just as many things and pretty much all of them are better than a smite. Your notion that this is balanced because they are limited to the same number as spellcasters is fatally flawed.

Yes, there's a full Advebture day.

Which is quite frankly, stupid. WotC should never have balanced the game around that many encounters in such a short period of time.

 

[Parmandur]

How? There is one single 3 round encounter that day. How does that 5th level paladin use them all up?

If a table wants to really see Class balance, then they.have to push the adventure day. If there is only one 3 round combat in a day, nobody is being pushed to show their stuff, but now a Paladin is limited in breaking the game for 1 encounter out of 6-8.

But wizards can use just as many things and pretty much all of them are better than a smite. Your notion that this is balanced because they are limited to the same number as spellcasters is fatally flawed.

That's an example of why a day of balance is more important than one Encounter.

Which is quite frankly, stupid. WotC should never have balanced the game around that many encounters in such a short period of time.

That's a different question, and one that isn't changing anytime soon. Given the balance of the game as is, thisnis just nailing down a proud nail that they missed in playtestijg leading to 2014, and doesn't change the balance in a full day.