Bolares
Hero
It doesn't help that a lot of the controlers were subpar too.
Playtest Druid and Paladin One D&D survey is live.
- Thread starter darjr
- Start date
It especially didn't help that the first Controller class to be printed not only naturally got the lion's share of support, it was the flagship class, and it was bloated with non-controller powers because of "legacy reasons". The other controllers had to make do with a lot less.
Also a Warlord stan btw!
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Could ≠ should.
You think there'd have been a problem with a 5e Warlord?
Arilyn
Hero
WotC can of course include whatever classes they want, as it's their game. I'm pushing back on the idea that the Warlord class needs the 4e structure to work.
I ran a levelup game from level one up to 11 or 12. Monster AC doesn't keep up with an expertise die from flanking and a size bump from "and as a bonus action I mark this guy, everyone gets an expertise die on it". Without old style iterative attack penalties, multiattack penalties, or maybe even black flag style first attack gets a bonus there just is not enough room in the math for it.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Problem? No. But absent the arbitrary constructs of "Power Source" and "Role" there is no point.
Of course it doesn't need the 4E structure to "work," but without the 4E structure there is nothing there to speak of.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
They dinked the paladin pretty hard by reducing smite to once a turn and only if you don't cast a spell.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
They reduced the ceiling for a Paladin Nova, but the average over and Adventure Day is probavly about the same. One suspects the nova potential was underestimated in 2014.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Nothing people like better than seeing their favorite classes nerfed. I'm sure that'll go over great.
mellored
Hero
The idea of a martial support still exists.
Give them bonus action help of rogues mastermind. Commander's stike from the battle master. Share second wind of the banneret. Expertise to trip. Ect...
Stuff like that.
Really, there are enough features already in the game. They just need put them together in coherent package.
Gorck
Prince of Dorkness
I was just thinking the other day how D&D forums seem like the anti-WoW forums. On WoW forums, most people boast, "my favorite class is awesome and all the other classes suck!" On D&D forums, most people lament, "my favorite class sucks and all the other classes are awesome!"
The more I think about the Warlord, the more I think of it as a combat-focused Bard crossed with the Battle Master Fighter's Commander's Strike maneuver. The Bard for the Control/Support/Healing aspects and the Commander's Strike for the . . . well, 4e Commander's Strike at-will power.
Which I guess could be made into a subclass similar to College of Valor or College of Swords, but with a more defensive leaning. Give Proficiency with Medium Armor (perhaps Heavy as well), Shields, and Martial Weapons, maybe some Battle Master maneuvers (including Commander's Strike), yada, yada, yada . . .
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mellored
Hero
Kinda.
But it's explicitly non-magical. Which kind or rules out this iteration of the bard.
I guess my litmus test for the warlord is that making attacks yourself should be the backup option.
Even just a..
If you help with an attack as an action, it gives advantage to the next Int attacks against that target instead of just one.
You may then make a single weapon attack as a bonus action against that target.
Gorck
Prince of Dorkness
Ah, I knew there was something I was missing. It was never really a fully fleshed out thought, just the germ of an idea marinating in the back of my brain while I was at work doing boring accounting stuff.
On the ride home I thought that the “performance” part of this made up subclass would be oratory- battle shouts and barking orders to the rest of the party. But then I realized that maneuvers were very similar to the College of Valor “Flourishes.”
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
I keep hearing how you don't need 6-8 encounters per day to challenge a group and you can do it with only 1 or 2 encounters. If that's true then damage over the day is going to vary quite a bit based on DM encounter choices. The fewer the number of encounters, the bigger the hit the new paladin will take.
If you play in AL, for example, most sessions will be something like 3 encounters and maybe one short rest.
I've played in home games where this is the norm, as the DM wants to have big setpiece battles that challenge the players, and doesn't want to bother with 6-8 encounters where some of those fights are "three orcs in a room".
I played a Paladin in AL during the Curse of Strahd season, and I just smote everything I could until I ran out of spell slots (after briefly trying to be a spellcaster and falling flat on my face thanks to failed concentration checks), figuring ending fights faster was the most effective use of my resources.
The New Paladin can't do that, but is, as you noted, forced to spread their power out more, which does limit them in shorter adventuring days. I'm not against this change, as I like the idea that Paladins might not be able to use all their slots smiting (and will thus have spells to use outside of combat), but it does reinforce a balance model that has proven to be undesired by many groups.
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
Its the least they could do! But they also allow smite on ranged attacks, and the smite spells are much better.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Obsession with mechanical fairness (often referred to as, "balance") is the bane of the WotC editions, in that it crowds out other conversation.
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