D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[doctorbadwolf]

Yup it's a bonus!

For many PCs, sure. For the rogue, it’s a core defining feature. Any given usage is very much not free.

 

[Mephista]

Considering that the original context was comparing Step of the Wind versus Cunning Action Disengage... can't we just assume that the "no cost" was a reference to the lack of an associated resource, and thus allowing the Rogue to spam it round after round? And drop the rest?

Nitpicking that it costs an action or bonus action or whatever is not doing the conversation any favors.

 

[Asisreo]

Then redefine the monk as a zen archer and be done with having any fantasy for unarmed martial artists.

So you're saying that a monk must always use their fist to be an unarmed combatant and even the faintest touch of a ranged weapons eviscerates its identity?

Can a wizard not use a crossbow just because he's the funny "magic man?"

But this discussion isn't about "once in a while". That's what you keep missing. Sure, if the monk occassionally takes a potshot at someone it isn't like the PHB bursts into flames. But when asked "what do you do if there are no soft ranged attackers for the monk to flank and gank" Mellored and others answer was "then you get out your bow and kite the melee enemies"

Their PLAN consistently, is to be in melee with enemies that can't fight in melee. And then never be in melee against foes who can fight in melee. This is a strategy predicated on the monk being a terrible melee class. And, as an unarmed martial artist fantasy, that would be a failure of class design.

We're talking about level 1 & 2. By level 3, the monk has options to do melee attacks and still be the elusive skirmisher that uses their speed to stay out of the enemy's range.

Because no, you don't have to take melee damage to be good at dealing melee damage. So if the elemonk wants to hit the enemy from 15ft away and push it back, then they're perfectly viable.

Plus, like, why are we getting so bunched up over your fantasy? How come my fantasy of the monk is suddenly wrong?

Now it isn't being able to chase down and dismantle the enemy, now it is being able to move between enemies you can kill in a single blow.

It can literally be both. They don't have to have a single, repetitive task every combat. That's actually what makes monks so fun, they don't rely on the same tactics they did the previous fight even though they're a martial.

And it doesn't have to be a single hit, as long as you can down the enemy in a turn, you can immediately go to the next and potentially soften them up with any leftover attacks you didn't use yet.

 

[Valetudo]

I want crouching tiger hidden dragon. That definitely includes weapons.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ok. You can split the party for such endeavors...
Maybe we just play two different games.

And we were comparing the monk with a fighter or barbarian.

We do play different games, if somehow a trained warrior isn't recognized as such just because they aren't decked out in armor.

No. I said that against single melee opponents, the monk has ranged options.
I just did not say that this is an excuse for the squishiness at level 1 or 2.

A melee fighter with no bow could be kited with a level 2 monk. 2 ki points will make sure that the fight won't ever get close.
But one thing should be held in mind. The melee fighter should win against the monk in melee. If the monk will be better than everyone else, we have the opposite problem.

And a melee fighter with no bow can be kited by a fighter with a bow too, all it takes is different speeds and starting distances.

And no, the melee fighter should not be guaranteed a win against the monk, because the monk is supposed to be good in melee. They should be almost equal, the fighter can have an edge, but not victory. I'm not asking for the monk to be better than everyone else, I'm asking for them to be capable in melee, instead of terrified of it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So you're saying that a monk must always use their fist to be an unarmed combatant and even the faintest touch of a ranged weapons eviscerates its identity?

Can a wizard not use a crossbow just because he's the funny "magic man?"

If you have designed a wizard class that, as a class, says "I am better off using my crossbow than using a cantrip" then you have not designed a good wizard class that is supposed to be using cantrips.

Again, I keep repeating it, this isn't "no monk should ever touch a crossbow!" this is a response to "the monk's best way to fight a melee opponent is to never engage in melee". The Monk is a class designed to punch people in the face, they are a melee class. And we keep getting told that they should avoid melee fights at all cost. That is a red flag.

We're talking about level 1 & 2. By level 3, the monk has options to do melee attacks and still be the elusive skirmisher that uses their speed to stay out of the enemy's range.

Because no, you don't have to take melee damage to be good at dealing melee damage. So if the elemonk wants to hit the enemy from 15ft away and push it back, then they're perfectly viable.

Plus, like, why are we getting so bunched up over your fantasy? How come my fantasy of the monk is suddenly wrong?

IF your fantasy is "the monk is a designated archer class" then I have bad news for you.

A monk should be able to engage in melee and not feel like that was a mistake. Sometimes at level 3 they have options, sometimes they don't. This conversation has ranged levels and abilities constantly.

And yes, the elemental monk's reach is very cool. But there is a looming problem. The elemental monk uses that ability at the start of the fight, then they flurry.... and now they have a single point of ki left until they can get a short rest. So, are they going to be able to continue in engaging with melee? Or are they going to need to abandon their fists and rely on their bow? And if it is the second... why do we have a class built to utilize their fists who consistently abandons use of their fists? Isn't that a problem!?

It can literally be both. They don't have to have a single, repetitive task every combat. That's actually what makes monks so fun, they don't rely on the same tactics they did the previous fight even though they're a martial.

And it doesn't have to be a single hit, as long as you can down the enemy in a turn, you can immediately go to the next and potentially soften them up with any leftover attacks you didn't use yet.

Other classes don't have to do the same single repetitive task either. But they are best at what they are designed to do. And it seems monks are not best in engaging in melee with their fists. Oh, sure, they do more damage with unarmed strikes (unless you have the unarmed fighting style) than other classes but they are so unreliable in melee that even the suggestion that that is what they should be doing seems to be melting down the thread. Instead, they seem to be the best at being archers. which is not what the fantasy of the Monk IS

 

[Chaosmancer]

I want crouching tiger hidden dragon. That definitely includes weapons.

I'm not against weapons.

I'm against "well, a monk should never engage in melee with a foe who can fight back in melee"

 

[Weiley31]

I like "Everybody was Kung-Fu Fighting" monks with their Ki mastery whambo jambos.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

So I have been going through the playtest document and crunching the number and making notes on the pdf as to my thoughts. It occurs to me that the 2023 monk is much better at base compared to the 2014 version and that Wizards are not going to radically change the class.
However, aside from more discipline points and addition to the Martial Arts options. In addition to Flurry of Blow (1 pt.), Patient Defence (1 pt.) and Step of the Wind (1pt.) If one added Hit and Run, Spend 1 discipline point to use the bonus action to make an unarmed strike and a disengage action, would go a long way to helping the monk out.

I do not usually reply to my own posts, but another thought occurred, and I wanted to keep them all together.
In Critical Role Season 2 Matt Mercer allows the monk to make their extra attack (the one that normally cost just a bonus action) as a free attack and allow the spending of ki/discipline to make flurry of blows, etc on top of that, this is also a viable upgrade to the monk.
If weapon mastery stays as it is, we are going to see a lot of 2 weapon fighting that does not use a bonus action and that they are unarmed is no excuse to leave the monk out of the fun.
I intend to give this as feed back on the monk, if given the opportunity.

 

[Valetudo]

I thought coming into this playtest that we would get at least 2 simple things that the monk needed. An upgrade on unarmed strike and an upgrade to d10 HD. These are actually basic adjustments that I feel the core class needs. These along with weapon mastery, I was imagine a duel wielding shadow ninja with 2 short swords, but they even took short swords away man. This core monk class worse than the standard 5e monk. It still has the same problems as before but it also has a nerfed stunning strike and even more mad because now you have some strength dcs you need. They also nerfed the actual fun stuff in the subclasses. Pass without trace for shadow monks? Gone. Quiveringpalm nerfed. Casters are shape changing into dragons. I was hoping for better wotc.