D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[UngainlyTitan]

hehe I've made the argument a long time ago that the core "martial artist" should just be a rogue subclass. Rogues already do it well, give them some good martial arts manuevers and such as subclass abilities, their core class already takes care of everything else. They have speed, evasion, can hit "pressure points" with sneak attack, have expertise for athletics and acrobatics if you want to go that route, can disengage and skirmish, I mean literally they have the package.

Not going to happen though. WoTC are not about the buck the history of the game. Nor are they not going to have a future version of every thing they had in 2014.

 

[Chaosmancer]

See. I did not say that. I said ranged attacks are adding to the Monk's melee capabilities (which, as I said still need some buff), not replacing it.

Please stop putting words in my mout or suggesting, I said different things, thank you.

Edit: you also don't have to look further than Diablo 2,3 and 4 to see the archetype of a throwing weapon barb.

I don't need to look at Diablo at all, because I'm looking at DnD.

And I apologize if you haven't been suggesting that the Monk's best plan against melee foes is to kite with a ranged weapon, but quite a few people HAVE been arguing that, which is what I have been arguing shows a design failure within the monk.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Barbs are str, so using a bow is not as optimal. They also don't have wisdom secondary.
So even then I'd have a bow as barbarian for the chance of encountering flying enemies or shooting at far range if necessary, but a monk actually naturally has the stats.

If those two preconditions are the same for you however, I don't know how to discuss this any further...

You don't need wisdom to shoot a bow?

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I've made the argument a long time ago that the core "martial artist" should just be a rogue subclass.

Besides the mechanical effectiveness, narratively the Monk class's forced shaolin monk vibes are very restrictive, so yeah, I can definitely see that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

hehe I've made the argument a long time ago that the core "martial artist" should just be a rogue subclass. Rogues already do it well, give them some good martial arts manuevers and such as subclass abilities, their core class already takes care of everything else. They have speed, evasion, can hit "pressure points" with sneak attack, have expertise for athletics and acrobatics if you want to go that route, can disengage and skirmish, I mean literally they have the package.

I could see it

 

[Chaosmancer]

- very subtle look. Pass as commoner and still be fully armed.

In a game where you just try to hit as hard as you can and not be hit too much, those assets are not worth a lot. In our game, my gnome monk rocked.

With a staff, a sling and with subterfuge.

Every single mage and any rogue worth his salt can pass as a commoner too. And it really doesn't matter if you "look like a commoner" if you are walking beside and chatting with a man strapped in glowing platemail carrying a flaming sword. People are going to guess you aren't a local farmer.

When having a tattoo on your arm can mean that you call down the fury of the gods upon those that oppose you, "he isn't carrying an obvious weapon! He isn't a threat!" is only thought by stupid people.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't need to look at Diablo at all, because I'm looking at DnD.

And I apologize if you haven't been suggesting that the Monk's best plan against melee foes is to kite with a ranged weapon, but quite a few people HAVE been arguing that, which is what I have been arguing shows a design failure within the monk.

No. I said that against single melee opponents, the monk has ranged options.
I just did not say that this is an excuse for the squishiness at level 1 or 2.

A melee fighter with no bow could be kited with a level 2 monk. 2 ki points will make sure that the fight won't ever get close.
But one thing should be held in mind. The melee fighter should win against the monk in melee. If the monk will be better than everyone else, we have the opposite problem.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Every single mage and any rogue worth his salt can pass as a commoner too. And it really doesn't matter if you "look like a commoner" if you are walking beside and chatting with a man strapped in glowing platemail carrying a flaming sword. People are going to guess you aren't a local farmer.

When having a tattoo on your arm can mean that you call down the fury of the gods upon those that oppose you, "he isn't carrying an obvious weapon! He isn't a threat!" is only thought by stupid people.

Ok. You can split the party for such endeavors...
Maybe we just play two different games.

And we were comparing the monk with a fighter or barbarian.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

So I have been going through the playtest document and crunching the number and making notes on the pdf as to my thoughts. It occurs to me that the 2023 monk is much better at base compared to the 2014 version and that Wizards are not going to radically change the class.
However, aside from more discipline points and addition to the Martial Arts options. In addition to Flurry of Blow (1 pt.), Patient Defence (1 pt.) and Step of the Wind (1pt.) one added Hit and Run, Spend 1 discipline point to use the bonus action to make an unarmed strike and a disengage action, would go a long way to helping the monk out.

 

[Weiley31]

Bonus action isn’t free.

Yup it's a bonus!