D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[mellored]

It kinda forces the monk to rely solely on their fists,

they are basically saying "yes you can make unarmed strikes....but don't"

Kind of funny you two came to the exact opposite conclusion, and neither of you like it.

Shows how hard it is to please the crowd.

 

[Asisreo]

Kind of funny you two came to the exact opposite conclusion, and neither of you like it.

Shows how hard it is to please the crowd.

Its to be expected. The monk has the heavy burden to fulfill so many playstyles at once, often contradicting.

They have to be the boxer but also the weapon master. They have to be the tank, dpr, control, and skirmisher. They have to have all the passive combat prowess of a martial and all the utility of a caster.

They can't be everything and still be balanced. I don't mind if they do lean into fists being their main avenue of attacks, but I want them to be at least a little committal with the monk.

 

[Stalker0]

Kind of funny you two came to the exact opposite conclusion, and neither of you like it.

Shows how hard it is to please the crowd.

its not really opposite, it just depends on when you are playing a monk.

At low levels, my conclusions stands. There is no reason to use unarmed strikes, just use that good old quarterstaff like you always have or a d6 weapon with some weapon masteries.

At 5th you will either use d6 weapon with weapon mastery or unarmed strike at d8, just depends on what you want.

Then once you hit d10 your probably going with the fist all the time.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Level 3: Open Hand Technique. Basically, you get to add weapon mastery-type effects to your unarmed strikes. This should just be baked into all monk unarmed strikes so Open Hand can get something that sets them apart from, like, a fighter or rogue at this level.

Worse.

It applies one of those effects only to hits from your Flurry of Blows.

Level 6: Wholeness of Body. Compare to Way of Mercy's Physician's Touch at the same level, which does what this does but so much more. Terrible - are WotC even looking at their own sub-classes?

It also is nerfed from where it was. It used to be an action, sure but it went from 18 to 60 hp. Now, assuming you aren't raising your wisdom to 20 (which isn't an unreasonable assumption) it is 3d8+9 or 23.5 the entire time, and costs you 3 pts to use.

Level 17: Quivering Palm. Huge nerf against most opponents. The old version did a maximum of all the target's HP (failed save) and a minimum of 10d10 (55) damage (saved). The new version does a maximum of 12D6+level (so call it 83) damage (failed save) and a minimum of half that (42) damage (saved). So against an opponent with more than 83 HP this is a nerf, potentially a massive one. Against an opponent who makes their save (most of them, because constitution saves at high levels are notoriously easy for most tough opponents) it is a straight nerf.

And you lose that intimidation factor: if you fail your save, you are at 0 HP - full stop.

It is a nerf... but a needed one. The Quivering Palm was one of the most absolutely insane abilities and its cost was nothing, unless you counted the actions.

I do wish you had the ability to instantly end the vibrations, that would be nice, but it needed to stop being an instant death effect.

 

[Asisreo]

It also is nerfed from where it was. It used to be an action, sure but it went from 18 to 60 hp. Now, assuming you aren't raising your wisdom to 20 (which isn't an unreasonable assumption) it is 3d8+9 or 23.5 the entire time, and costs you 3 pts to use.

I mean, I feel like Wisdom is a higher priority for the open hand monk than any other, so you really should be bolstering it, at least after your dex.

And the range is typically higher. Like you said, its now 23.5 where it was 18. And if we increase wisdom to max at level 20, we get 75hp rather than 60.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I had missed that you can't use your martial arts die with weapons. That nerfs them even more.

Unarmed attacks can chose between damage, trip, shove, or grapple. Plus you can stun, and your subclass gets you lots of other features, and consider that you can make 4 attacks at level 1...

So it would be a bit OP to have mastery on unarmed attacks.

Monks can do plenty of tactical stuff without it.

Well... no actually.

To trip, shove or grapple the enemy needs to fail a saving throw, the DC of which is 8+STRENGTH MOD+Prof. There isn't a monk alive that is going to have a positive strength modifier unless they had god-like rolls. They need Dex, Cha AND Con first.

So, in reality, they are the ONLY people using unarmed strikes that CAN'T trip, shove or grapple with them.

//////////////////////////////////////////

And sadly.... is this just almost all nerfs?

1st level -> You get weapon masteries like everyone else, but flex is useless to you and you can't increase damage die, so you are mostly getting slow, vex or sap unless you want to deal 2d4+mod with nick.
2nd level -> Step of the wind is buffed, but that's it. No other changes.
3rd -> Deflect missiles is mostly the same. The damage seems higher, but it isn't actually. The old one was an attack with a monk weapon, so it would do, for example, 1d8+4 with the martial arts die. Now it is a save versus 2d8. The range is more reliable, you can throw within 60 ft, but it is save for zero.
4th -> Slow fall is the same
5th -> Stunning strike is nerfed to once per turn
6th -> Empowered strikes basically the same
7th -> Evasion the same, but you do now get Metabolism which can be good for quick recovery
9th -> Acrobatic movement is the same
10th -> you lose immunity to poison damage, but can end poison, fear or charm as a bonus action.... but there is a fundamental problem still unaddressed. You have to know you are charmed, and you have to be capable of a bonus action. A monk hit with Dominate Person can't take an action their controller doesn't allow... so you can't end the charm effect. It is a really fundamental problem with Stillness of Mind
13th -> Deflect energy is neat I guess, but real late
14th -> Diamond soul is unchanged
15th -> Perfect Discipline was their 20th capstone... so I guess this is better.
18th -> Empty body is nerfed
20 -> Defy Death is neat, but expensive.

And this kind of continues through the subclasses.

Open Hands 3rd level ability was essentially nerfed by adding the con save to the no reactions. And is otherwise unchanged. Wholeness is nerfed because of the cost.


Shadow monk is largely the same. Loses Opportunist and gets somethings for free. It becomes very one note with the shadow teleport, and Cloak is very good, but VERY risky since ever being in bright light blows it.

Elemental is better, but the cantrip is useless (entirely useless it feels like) but most of the abilities are just decent.


Monks needed a really big boost... and they actually recieved more nerfs than anything else? Except, Monks are focusing even more on high tier mobility. Open hand gets forever free bonus dash+disengage. Elements gets flight and Destructive stride for damage while moving. Shadow is all teleport all the time. But without more ways to attack or control, the monk can't utilize this mobility.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean, I feel like Wisdom is a higher priority for the open hand monk than any other, so you really should be bolstering it, at least after your dex.

And the range is typically higher. Like you said, its now 23.5 where it was 18. And if we increase wisdom to max at level 20, we get 75hp rather than 60.

Right, but after dex means you can't do it until after level 8. Level 12 if you take any feats at all.

So, assume you took at least one feat, and maxed dex. That means you are getting 18 wisdom at 16th level. The old Wholeness would give you 48 hp, as an action, with no ki cost. This version gives you 4d10+16 or an average of 38 for 4 ki points.

Actually, how did you get 75? The highest I can see is 5d12+25 which average to 57.5, and costs you 5 ki pts overall.

 

[Gammadoodler]

It is a nerf... but a needed one. The Quivering Palm was one of the most absolutely insane abilities and its cost was nothing, unless you counted the actions.

It was a 3 ki cost in the original version as well. And it's a con save (which are notoriously high on enemies) vs monk DC which is notoriously low since the key ability is a difficult one to max out.

And it's a level 17 ability. Power Word Kill is an available spell at this level. Could just make the ability a 1x per some rest increment thing with a resource cost and have it function similarly to PWK.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It was a 3 ki cost in the original version as well. And it's a con save (which are notoriously high on enemies) vs monk DC which is notoriously low since the key ability is a difficult one to max out.

Having a wis mod of +3 is not notoriously low. It is just a 10% higher chance to save than having a +3 modifier. Many monsters don't have good saves, even on constitution.

With an extra feat at level 0, chances are you will raise wis a bit earlier too.


That said, the new monk is not nerfed hard. Numbers need to be tweaked a bit. Some things could be added, like making their shove and grab DCs based on wis or dex, etc.

 

[Clint_L]

Raise their hit die to D10, and give them di points at level 1, adding wisdom modifier, with step of the wind as their level 1 di point option. Just doing that would go a long way towards making monks more competitive, and would make monks feel like monks from 1st level.