D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[ZetaShift]

Also one of the more annoying things is that they couldn't implement some of the more basic fixes the community has been doing for years, such as scaling FoB or even just getting more dis-a-points = to your wisdom modifier(level + mod). The monk ua just reeks of lack of basic knowledge of the fundamental issues with the class.

 

[Clint_L]

They can BEAT the damage curve.
They can BEAT the defense curve.
*while ki lasts.

And their niche is that they can run past the entire front line and stun the wizard in the back. They have a much stronger identity than most other classes (i.e. Rangers).

"Their numbers are a little bit low" is probably a valid complaint. But that's not inherent to the class design. Just increasing ki pool by 2 might fix that.

The point to which you were responding was specifically discussing monks at levels 1-4. So what is that niche, again?

Also, at levels 1-4 they can beat the damage curve, barely, for a maximum of 4 rounds at level 4. Compare a way of open hand monk to a berserker barbarian (off the top of my head) who can do two reckless attacks with rage bonus for the whole battle. Let's make it level 4 to give the monk maximum benefit. New monk does 1d8+2d6+9, for 20.5 damage; barbarian does 4d6+10 for 24 damage, setting aside weapon mastery effects. Anyhow, I think monk using flurry of blows is good, but not off the charts or anything. Fairly competitive with a raging barbarian. For four rounds.

Survivability...well, let's compare to that same barbarian, against, say, an orc. We'll just use unarmored defence for both, so the barbarian will likely have AC 14 with 41 HP, and the monk AC 16, 27 HP. Barbarian is raging, monk is using patient defence. And the barbarian is going to keep making those reckless attacks, so the orc will have no problem hitting. Orc does 4.17 HP damage/round to the barbarian (damage halved due to rage) and 2.13 damage/round to the monk. At the end of that 4 rounds, the barbarian will have lost about 40% of their HP, and the monk only 30% of theirs. So again fairly competitive with a raging, reckless barbarian. For four rounds.

But the barbarian is doing both at the same time - they have that survivability while still doing better offence than the monk (way better, actually, once we add in advantage from the reckless attacks) - the monk has to go down to 1d8+3 (7.5) damage to get that defence. And the barbarian can keep going for as long as the fight lasts. So, again, not sure what the monk's niche is. Run in and attack for 1d8+3 damage and then use bonus action plus a di to run back out? Why not just have, say, a ranger sit at range and do far more damage for a lot less bother?

At levels 5-10...okay, new monk can run in and get one stun attempt on that wizard and then step of the wind back out. Versus the ranger, who can just stay at range and do way more pure offence against that wizard, or whatever other abilities/spells they have. Is this really a great niche for the monk?

Edit: noticed that I didn't give the monk and barbarian their level 4 ASI but let's call it a wash.

 

[mellored]

Edit: noticed that I didn't give the monk and barbarian their level 4 ASI but let's call it a wash.

Monk gets a lot more damage from a +1 than a barb.
And I don't see anything added from open hand.

But I agree they could use some more ki at lower levels.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I disagree with the idea that Unarmed Strikes need a Weapon Mastery. I think what Unarmed Strikes do need is to be able to pull off the push, trip, etc. tactical moves that a lot of other classes are getting, but based on Wis or Dex instead of Str. So not a tacked on weapon mastery, but a distinct class feature. Definitely feels more "martial artsy" that way.

Then add in a way to spend di points to possibly enhance these maneuvers, either as a core ability, or for the subclasses.

Finally, have the unarmed attack die size apply to monk weapons, so it's a meaningful choice to use either your fists with the options mentioned above, or a weapon and take advantage of its particular weapon mastery feature.

 

[Gammadoodler]

3 pts was the same cost of a second level spell, and it was a short rest resource. For an instant death effect? That is nothing.

I agree, con save versus the monk DC was hard to beat... which is why when it didn't kill automatically it dealt 10d10 damage. So, let us rephrase the question. If it took you two actions to cast, would a short rest restored auto 10d10 damage spell be balanced?

I don't think it would be. I honestly think that making it so you could choose to end the vibrations on the same turn you impose them would just make this better if you needed it to be, but it needed to be taken down from where it was.

Considering you are giving up an opportunity to make 4 attacks for it at 4d12 + 20 (and lost opportunity to apply any flurry of blows riders or stunning strikes) I think it's closer than you're giving it credit for.

Maybe 3 ki points isn't the right number. But the effect is reasonable for the level get it at.

 

[akr71]

Just give unarmed strike the light property and the Nick mastery.

I don't disagree, but the Push and Topple masteries seem to scream martial arts to me.

 

[Clint_L]

Considering you are giving up an opportunity to make 4 attacks for it at 4d12 + 20 (and lost opportunity to apply any flurry of blows riders or stunning strikes) I think it's closer than you're giving it credit for.

Maybe 3 ki points isn't the right number. But the effect is reasonable for the level get it at.

Over two rounds, the lvl 17 Hand monk can do 8d12+40 damage at a cost of 2 di total with regular attacks plus flurry of blows, or (4d12+20) + (10d12+17/save for half) at a cost of 5 di total by using quivering palm. But at this point di is basically free, so I hardly factor that in. So quivering palm is definitely good; it's just way less good than it was. And I agree that the current iteration is extremely powerful but...man, it takes 17 levels to finally get a genuinely scary ability, so for most monks it's just not relevant.

I dunno...it just seems weird that we all expected monks to get a big boost but the nerfs seem as prominent as the buffs.

Also...looking at those high levels attacks makes me think: doesn't the lack of mastery on unarmed strikes amount to a nerf that grows as the monk levels up, and compound with the stealth nerf from the fact that so few magic items benefit monk attacks? By the time they get to d12 unarmed strikes the monk will want to use them for most or all attacks, but that would mean no free mastery benefits at all.

I think high level monks are significantly weaker now, in comparison to other martials. But they can move around great. As can a lot of other classes at high levels.

To me, compared to other 2024 classes, monks have gone from "meh" to "meh."

 

[mellored]

Considering you are giving up an opportunity to make 4 attacks for it at 4d12 + 20 (and lost opportunity to apply any flurry of blows riders or stunning strikes) I think it's closer than you're giving it credit for.

Maybe 3 ki points isn't the right number. But the effect is reasonable for the level get it at.

Consider it can be done at range as well.

Bonus action dash+disengage (free for open hand), run up, punch some vibrations, and get away.

Next turn explode them from a safe distance. Possibly running even further away.

 

[mellored]

Side note.
My next BBEG is an open hand monk.
Who was ambushed by some bandits, and used quivering palm to turn them into an highly disciplined army. Disobey her and you die.

*Ignoring the one person limit, because I'm the DM.

 

[OB1]

I think there are just two buffs to bring the Monk fully up, and one that would be a nice addition
1. Add Wis Mod to the number of Di points you have
2. Give the Hand's Flurry of Blow strikes to all Monks, Make the Hand's version either work w/o a saving throw, or allow them to add ANY weapon mastery to their Flurry of Blow strikes.

For the nice to have - Change Unarmored Defense to let you choose 2 of Str, Dex, Con and Wis to create your armor class. This would encourage a variety of Monk builds.

I don't think they should get a d10 HD. I prefer their damage mitigation features (like Evasion and prof in all saves) to the extra HP.