D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Clint_L]

unarmed attack got flex. The least interesting option. But still a mastery.

Not that it fixes their low level issues.

They did not get flex - I understand that it is the same effect, but there is still opportunity for WotC to add an actual weapon mastery to unarmed strike.

The problem is that this is basically Warrior of Open Hand's defining trait...except they have to spend di points to do what other martial classes get for free. Which is the root problem with monks: they have to spend their very limited resources to bring them up to the baseline of other classes.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Round 1: You spot an enemy shaman, using their magic to wreak havoc. No worries; you spend your first ever di point to leap over the awed goblins in front, engaging the shocked spellcaster. Feels pretty good - you miss on your only attack, but you'll get them next round!

Funny thing is, this lv2 action monk plan might work, if only absolutely every single thing didn't need its own bonus action.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't always agree with DnDShorts, but he very accurately summarizes the problems with this update, which he considers a "failure" if it is the final iteration:

My only critique is the notion that Fighters at 1st level get half plate. Um....half plate is 750 GP, I don't expect that kind of money until like 3rd level.

So yeah monks are very MAD, but they can have a reasonable AC compared to 1st level fighters.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

My only critique is the notion that Fighters at 1st level get half plate. Um....half plate is 750 GP, I don't expect that kind of money until like 3rd level.

So, like... an hour later?

 

[Chaosmancer]

My only critique is the notion that Fighters at 1st level get half plate. Um....half plate is 750 GP, I don't expect that kind of money until like 3rd level.

So yeah monks are very MAD, but they can have a reasonable AC compared to 1st level fighters.

I agree, 1st level fighters can match or exceed Monk AC. 16 AC is the monk max. That is a dual-wielding or Great Weapon Fighter, unless they take Defensive, then it is 17.

A shield fighter has between 18 and 19 AC at level 1.

In fact, 16 AC is true of any class who can get medium armor, but can't use a shield. So at 1st level the following classes can match the monk's maximum AC which cannot improve until level 4.

Artificer (Can use shield to get to 18)
Barbarian (Can use shield to get to 18)
Cleric (Can use shield to get to 18)
Druid (Can use shield to get to 18)
Fighter (Can use shield to get to 18)
Paladin (Can use shield to get to 18)
Ranger (Can use shield to get to 18)
Warlock

Meaning the Monk is better than a level 1

Bard
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard

... Assuming the bard, warlock, or wizard do no combine mage armor with shield.

And at 3rd level it wouldn't be hard for certain subclasses like the Valor Bard, Draconic Sorcerer, or Bladesinger wizard to match or exceed the monk, who can't increase their AC until 4th level.

But Monks absolutely have better AC than Rogues... barring the exceptions like the Swashbucklers new ability and magical armor...


Why do we think Monk AC is reasonable again?

 

[Stalker0]

Why do we think Monk AC is reasonable again?

A shielded fighter has chosen Defense over Offense. A dueling fighter with shield is doing 1d8 + 2 + strength on 1 attack (1d8 + 5 or 9.5 with 16 str for that level).

A monk with Handaxe/Dagger is doing 1d6 + dex (Handaxe), 1d6 + dex (Unarmed Strike), 1d4 (Dagger with nick's TWF) or 15.5 with a 16 dex.

So yes the fighter is tankier (+2 AC), and the monk does more damage (63% more in fact). The fighter is paying for that higher AC with a MUCH lower damage output.

 

[Sulicius]

A shielded fighter has chosen Defense over Offense. A dueling fighter with shield is doing 1d8 + 2 + strength on 1 attack (1d8 + 5 or 9.5 with 16 str for that level).

A monk with Handaxe/Dagger is doing 1d6 + dex (Handaxe), 1d6 + dex (Unarmed Strike), 1d4 (Dagger with nick's TWF) or 15.5 with a 16 dex.

So yes the fighter is tankier (+2 AC), and the monk does more damage (63% more in fact). The fighter is paying for that higher AC with a MUCH lower damage output.

No, you don’t get it. You can only compare the most extreme strength of every other class with the monk

 

[Stalker0]

A shielded fighter has chosen Defense over Offense. A dueling fighter with shield is doing 1d8 + 2 + strength on 1 attack (1d8 + 5 or 9.5 with 16 str for that level).

A monk with Handaxe/Dagger is doing 1d6 + dex (Handaxe), 1d6 + dex (Unarmed Strike), 1d4 (Dagger with nick's TWF) or 15.5 with a 16 dex.

So yes the fighter is tankier (+2 AC), and the monk does more damage (63% more in fact). The fighter is paying for that higher AC with a MUCH lower damage output.

Taking this example into higher levels. The fighter once per short rest action surge generates an extra 9.5 damage with action surge. The monk can flurry twice for 6.5 x 2 = 13 damage, so the monk is actually doing EVEN MORE damage at this level.

At 3rd level I would say the fighter is able to afford split mail for that +1 to AC, but the monk has gotten another 6.5 damage with another flurry of blows.

At 4th level the monk gets their own +1 to AC with the ability bump. Further, the fighter has +1 damage per round (or +2 on their action surge round). The monk has gained +2 damage per round (or +3 on their 4 rounds of flurry).

At 5th level the fighter is likely now able to afford full plate for another +1 to AC. The fighter now does 21 DPR with its extra attack, +21 on the action surge, and they have an AC 20. The monk has an AC 17, does 1d6 + 4 x2, 1d8 + 4, 1d4 for 26 DPR, +8.5 for each flurry.

So I would argue that the Monk at levels 1-4 is honestly doing fine. They are doing MUCH more damage than the fighter in exchange for lower hps and AC (in fact its so much more honestly the fighter is looking a bit sluggish here). Its really level 5 where things become more questionable. The monk does more damage in general but its no longer a massive difference, the AC gab has lowered, the fighter's second wind continues to scale with each level. further, while the monk could flurry 5 times in a fight, many fights don't even last 5 rounds, whereas the fighter's second wind has a noticeable and powerful impact.

In summary: Its not until 5th level that the Monk's effectiveness vs a shield fighter starts to come into question. They do a sizable amount more offense at levels 1-4 in exchange for some defense. At 5th, the fighter gains notable increases in AC and damage which now brings in questions to the monk's performance.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A shielded fighter has chosen Defense over Offense. A dueling fighter with shield is doing 1d8 + 2 + strength on 1 attack (1d8 + 5 or 9.5 with 16 str for that level).

Yes, a fighter can make that choice. A Monk can never make that choice. Tell me, what happens when that dueling fighter pulls out two handaxes? What if they pull out a polearm?

Any fighter can choose to limit their offense and strap-on a shield. No monk can ever change their baseline strategy.

A monk with Handaxe/Dagger is doing 1d6 + dex (Handaxe), 1d6 + dex (Unarmed Strike), 1d4 (Dagger with nick's TWF) or 15.5 with a 16 dex.

So yes the fighter is tankier (+2 AC), and the monk does more damage (63% more in fact). The fighter is paying for that higher AC with a MUCH lower damage output.

Okay, so the Fighter drops the shield, pulls out a Greatsword and does 2d6+3 which is 10 damage, and does 3 damage on a miss. Assuming a 60% chance to hit that ends up having monk and fighter look like this

Monk:
1d6+3 x 2 x0.6 = 7.8
1d4 x 0.6 = 1.5
Total = 9.3 damage

Fighter:
2d6+3 x0.6 = 6
3 x0.4 = 1.2
7.2 total.

That is only 33% less damage, and the fighter has the same AC, better hp, second wind AND THE DUELING FIGHTING STYLE.

Yes, with this single combo of handaxe and dagger, at level 1, a monk can make three attacks and that is very powerful. But with anything else not using the weapon mastery, they are going to drop behind. And as the levels climb, they start losing. And... they can't change tactics. Their tactics are baked into the class.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

I at least hope they get unarmed attacks magic items from the start this time.