D&D (2024) Playtest Packet 6: Monk reactions?

[Chaosmancer]

IMO

Step of the wind at 1, with 1 ki.
+5' of movement at 1.
Grapple has shove are Dex based at 1.

Also, we shouldn't be forcing monks to stand still and trade blows. You're ignoring half their abilities doing so.

Punch something and run away. Use your subclass darkness, reach, or open hand techniques to avoid OA's. If they range attack, deflect it.

I bet a well played level 3 monks could beat a level 3 fighter. You just can't expect them to stand still.

This is why mobile ends up becoming a must-have for monks. Because if they use patient defense of flurry, they are stuck in melee with the enemy.

Maybe mobile should be baked into the monk like it is for the Swashbuckler.

3RD LEVEL: FANCY FOOTWORK
You’ve learned how to land a strike and then slip
away without reprisal. If you make a melee
attack against a creature during your turn, that
creature can’t make Opportunity Attacks against
you for the rest of that turn.

Maybe they need this, at level 1.


Edit: Huh.... I don't hate that. I really really like it actually. Why not move this ability into Martial Arts? Now they are the ultimate skirmisher without having to change a single other thing about the class.

 

[Zaukrie]

Imagine a 2nd level monk. You spent a game or so at first level, not really able to do anything special. But now you have di points and some new abilities. Now, the fun begins! And look, a mob of goblins, threatening the party!

Round 1: You spot an enemy shaman, using their magic to wreak havoc. No worries; you spend your first ever di point to leap over the awed goblins in front, engaging the shocked spellcaster. Feels pretty good - you miss on your only attack, but you'll get them next round!

Round 2: Ouch. It turns out that your 16 AC isn't really that great, and so you took 11 damage when some of the goblins came back to help their buddy, leaving you with just 4 HP (luckily that one goblin rolled a 19 and not a 20 - close one!). You take another swing at the shaman, hitting them with your staff for 8 points of damage. Discretion being the better part of valour, you use your sole remaining di point to disengage and step of the wind, leaping back over the goblins mobbing you and rushing back to your party's own spell casters - hopefully one of them can spare you a heal, since they now have 4 spell slots each plus cantrips.

Round 3: Huh...no one wants to heal you since apparently it is a "waste of resources." Jen's raging barbarian is up front crushing goblins with seeming impunity, alongside Jamie's chainmail+shield protected fighter. Good thing you brought these darts! You prepare to make your meaningful contribution.

That's my issue. I want monks to be able to do monk things. Like every other class can.

 

[WanderingMystic]

This is why mobile ends up becoming a must-have for monks. Because if they use patient defense of flurry, they are stuck in melee with the enemy.

Maybe mobile should be baked into the monk like it is for the Swashbuckler.

3RD LEVEL: FANCY FOOTWORK
You’ve learned how to land a strike and then slip
away without reprisal. If you make a melee
attack against a creature during your turn, that
creature can’t make Opportunity Attacks against
you for the rest of that turn.

Maybe they need this, at level 1.


Edit: Huh.... I don't hate that. I really really like it actually. Why not move this ability into Martial Arts? Now they are the ultimate skirmisher without having to change a single other thing about the class.

At first level it might be to tempting of a must have dip.

 

[Stalker0]

At first level it might be to tempting of a must have dip.

On the other hand the monk doesn't play that nice with others classwise, I mean none of the rest of its 1st level kit is going to help you much in your dip. Meanwhile you are giving up progressions in your core class (including slow down your ability bump and extra attack). Also lets not forget it requires a 13 in both dex and wis to multiclass with monk.... that's actually a sacrifice for a few other classes.

So when people talk about a "must have" dip, we really need to consider the trade off. Its a solid ability don't get me wrong, but dipping just to get this ability has a high price tag.

Probably the best synergy I can think of is a Ranger X / Monk 1. Rangers tend to have high dex and wis anyway so the unarmed defense might actual be useful, and rangers often like to skirmish with TWF. So maybe a ranger might do it....but at the cost of slower subclass, 1 less hp, fewer spell slots, slower to extra attack, slower to a feat, slower to roving. I mean again its a nice ability....but yeah that's such a high price tag. If this was the old hunter's mark the ranger would likely jump at it for another attack to feed that ability, but now that's its 1/turn it limits the usefulness.

 

[mellored]

This is why mobile ends up becoming a must-have for monks. Because if they use patient defense of flurry, they are stuck in melee with the enemy.

Maybe mobile should be baked into the monk like it is for the Swashbuckler.

3RD LEVEL: FANCY FOOTWORK
You’ve learned how to land a strike and then slip
away without reprisal. If you make a melee
attack against a creature during your turn, that
creature can’t make Opportunity Attacks against
you for the rest of that turn.

Maybe they need this, at level 1.


Edit: Huh.... I don't hate that. I really really like it actually. Why not move this ability into Martial Arts? Now they are the ultimate skirmisher without having to change a single other thing about the class.

Way too much for multiclassing. Maybe at level 5

And at higher levels.
Perfect Step
Your movement never trigger a reaction.

But Monks 100% need some kind of skirmish feature at level 1

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Also, we shouldn't be forcing monks to stand still and trade blows. You're ignoring half their abilities doing so.

Punch something and run away. Use your subclass darkness, reach, or open hand techniques to avoid OA's. If they range attack, deflect it.

A monk could play keep-away and keep running off... but that is not at all applicable to an actual play scenario, where you are part of a party, and are often in the position where you're trying to keep enemies from shanking the other PCs.

From the rest of the party's viewpoint, if you'd just picked Fighter instead of Monk, you'd likely be doing your job better. Not saying they should just stand there in a white room and trade blows, but... that kind of often comes with the role.

 

[mellored]

A monk could play keep-away and keep running off... but that is not at all applicable to an actual play scenario, where you are part of a party, and are often in the position where you're trying to keep enemies from shanking the other PCs.

And enemies are trying to keep you away from shaking the caster in the back.

Mobility goes both ways.

From the rest of the party's viewpoint, if you'd just picked Fighter instead of Monk, you'd likely be doing your job better. Not saying they should just stand there in a white room and trade blows, but... that kind of often comes with the role.

You don't expect a rogue to stand in a room trading blows. Why would you expect the monk to?

If you want to be an unarmored front line puncher. Be a beast barbarian.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Speaking of mobility I just noticed that the feat wasn't in the expert or origins playtest package like all of the other feats were.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I dunno. If I've watched any kung fu movies, the protagonist seems to always be tactically intelligent and resourceful. Besides, monk doesn't mean anything anymore in terms of fantasy, really. Since now they're just "elusive skirmisher" rather than "eastern-movie inpired action hero."

They're meant to be an unarmed combat master. If I wanted "elusive skirimisher", that's literally the job of the Rogue, who doesn't have to pay any points to just Bonus Action Disengage/Dash/Hide. In fact, they could actually do what you are saying the Monk could do even better, since they don't aren't going to run out of the resource that allows them to Dash.

The concept of the monk is not meant to be "I run away while plinking away at my enemies with a crossbow", it's "I get in close and break my opponent with the utter tide of my fist". This is the problem right now with the class: it really can't do what it is meant to do, so we are finding weird alternative ways that aren't even class-based but rather equipment-based to try and make them work.

I disagree. Weapon Masteries will end up being huge sacrifices in damage at higher levels and making them any harder for the monk to use only exacerbates that issue.

Higher levels matter less in D&D 5E than most other d20 games, and really we should put most of the focus on lower levels, where the most play is likely to occur and most action likely to happen.



Again: the fundamental problem with the monk is that they are flexible in theory but in practice all their flexibility is undermined by the fact that they have to spend their limited resources on all of it. What they need to do is give the Monk more free things so that they can actually work their niche without worrying about losing it, and then let their points to give them the flexibility they need.

 

[Chaosmancer]

At first level it might be to tempting of a must have dip.

Way too much for multiclassing. Maybe at level 5

And at higher levels.
Perfect Step
Your movement never trigger a reaction.

But Monks 100% need some kind of skirmish feature at level 1

I don't know, as @Stalker0 said, it isn't that tempting of a dip.

This ability works best with a class that has multiple attacks, but Fighter's and Paladins have zero reason to go Monk. Ranger's could... but they would be better off not doing it. They might get unarmored defense, but as we have covered, unarmored defense is just medium armor proficiency which rangers have. Barbarian? WAY too MAD, all of their abilities contradict each other. Any caster is going to find the dip MAD except clerics and druids, both of whom have options for armor and don't want to delay their spellcasting progression. Rogue? If a rogue wants this, it is a rogue feature. And besides they don't need it.

Additionally, for any class that just wants this ability.... Mobile still exists as a feat, gives you this ability +10 movement, and I think the ability to dash over difficult terrain, maybe with a dex boost too. So what is the advantage of dipping monk for this ability instead of just taking a feat that gives you actually useful features you want to take?

Also, Mellored in particular, Perfect Step is bad because it makes Step of the Wind's disengage pointless.


I honestly don't see a good argument for this being a dip that is more tempting than rage, armor proficiencies, or spell casting.