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Playtest report - can 22 goblins defeat alcohol?

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
First some background on my group:

3 out of the 5 players have never played any edition other than 4e. One of the players has been playing since 1e. The other one played a couple of sessions of 2e and 3e but has very little experience outside 4e. I'm DMing. I started playing with basic dnd. However, that lasted about 2 sessions before I gave up. I rediscovered dnd in a group playing a hybrid 1e/2e game. I started DMing with 2e and have mostly DMed since. I've played weekly nearly constantly from 2e until the present, playing every edition since then.

Before the session even started our resident power gamer/rules lawyer comes to me and says "Did you see the rules for intoxication? You take less damage for being drunk! Naked Wizard for the win!"

There is some rules discussion before the session starts. We aren't sure if you need to ready an action to take a reaction(after all there was a L&L article saying that you'd have to use up your action in order to act during other peoples turns or react to things in order to avoid combats slowing down. And if you read the text in a certain way it implies it). We decide that you need to ready an action to take a reaction. At least for this session. There is one confusion as to how to prepare spells and he difference between clerics and wizards.

The player who is playing the Moradin cleric is disappointed with his cleric. He doesn't like his reaction ability. Even if he doesnt have to ready an action he thinks it's useless. He doesn't like the lack of attack spells and the fact that his attack bonus and damage is lower than the fighter's.

The session started with them being in a tavern. The Rogue stole all the Knight's money before I even had time to do an intro. A herald comes into the tavern and asks for brave adventurers for a dangerous mission. The PCs notice they don't have any money so they accept.

The herald takes them to the king who says his son has been kidnapped by goblins. The PCs don't make any attempt to show any deference to the king at all. Some of them bow slightly. The Rogue makes a special point of being defiant. The king is desperate enough that he ignores it. He had some scouts report back that his son was taken to the caves of chaos.

The PCs get to the caves and search for footprints. They go into the cave with goblin tracks. They boldly go don the corridor and run into a patrol of 6 goblins. They raise the alarm as their first action. The PCs are soon attacked by 3 more goblins. The PCs quickly cast most of their spells and lose most of their hp.

When they think they've won, suddenly 3 more goblins and an ogre attack them. They pull through. But everyone is almost dead.

During this time there is some debate as to whether it takes an action to hide if you start the turn completely blocked from an enemy. I rule it doesnt.

The Wizard has prepared 2 burning hands. He casts one during the fight and rolls two 1s for damage making it do almost no damage. The Wizard player complains that his spells don't seem as useful as just using magic missile.

The PCs go through the secret passage into the ogre cave and close the door behind them. They find the keg of brandy. The Wizard says "perfect. Ive been looking for something to get me Intoxicated." The rest of the group looks at him confused and say "are we missing something?" He then explains that Intoxicated makes you take 1d6 less damage from attacks but makes you have disadvantage on your attacks. He points out that neither magic missile nor burning hands require an attack roll so it has no disadvantage for him at all. The Moradin cleric and fighter decide that getting drunk is a better advantage than disadvantage. They all get drunk. They all spend their hit dice healing. they aren't at full hit points.

The rogue meanwhile finds the potions and attempts to pocket them before anyone sees. He fails. They drunkenly get annoyed at him. He decides to pick a random potion and just drink it. The wizard attempts to stop him and fails. He has drank their only healing potion while at full hit points. They yell at him for drinking their loot.

I've been being nice to them so far given that there are 30 goblins still alive in this cave complex, the alarm has been raised, and they left the bodies of the dead goblins and ogre out in the open. However, I grow tired of watching them drink and argue over loot, so the 22 goblin hunting party overhears their argument and opens the door.

The wizard runs out there and burning hands a bunch of them. He rolls two 1s on his damage again. The goblins all attack him. Despite being Intoxicated and it removing most of the damage he took, he still goes down. The fighter runs out there and drags him back into the ogre cave.

The cleric of Moradin cures the wizard then stands in the 5 foot wide doorway and continually takes the dodge action. He's been commenting since he started reading the rules about how broken it is. Between his increased AC from dodge and the 1d6 less damage for being intoxicated he is able to stand there for multiple rounds not taking any damage. The wizard runs forward, magic missiles someone then runs back behind the cleric every round.

After the goblins realize they aren't hurting the cleric and they are down to 10 of them, they decide to run. The wizard chases them down he hallway trying to kill them. They turn around and hit him with a bunch of arrows and he goes down again.

The party then decides to barricade themselves in the ogre cave. The cleric of pelor first decides to make healing potions. I rule she can find the herbs in the forest nearby and they use the empty vial they have to make it.

It then became pretty late and we had been running one long battle against goblins for nearly an hour. I wasn't feeling that great and listening to them complain about how it was way too easy for them to die in 5e and how they enjoyed their 4e sessions better was starting to grate on my nerves so we stopped for the evening.

Session 2 is tonight. Will update with more after that happens.
 

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Intoxicated itself just needs one more bullet: casting spells should require a Constitution check (at disadvantage).
 



First some background on my group:

3 out of the 5 players have never played any edition other than 4e. One of the players has been playing since 1e. The other one played a couple of sessions of 2e and 3e but has very little experience outside 4e. I'm DMing. I started playing with basic dnd. However, that lasted about 2 sessions before I gave up. I rediscovered dnd in a group playing a hybrid 1e/2e game. I started DMing with 2e and have mostly DMed since. I've played weekly nearly constantly from 2e until the present, playing every edition since then.

Before the session even started our resident power gamer/rules lawyer comes to me and says "Did you see the rules for intoxication? You take less damage for being drunk! Naked Wizard for the win!"

There is some rules discussion before the session starts. We aren't sure if you need to ready an action to take a reaction(after all there was a L&L article saying that you'd have to use up your action in order to act during other peoples turns or react to things in order to avoid combats slowing down. And if you read the text in a certain way it implies it). We decide that you need to ready an action to take a reaction. At least for this session. There is one confusion as to how to prepare spells and he difference between clerics and wizards.

The player who is playing the Moradin cleric is disappointed with his cleric. He doesn't like his reaction ability. Even if he doesnt have to ready an action he thinks it's useless. He doesn't like the lack of attack spells and the fact that his attack bonus and damage is lower than the fighter's.

The session started with them being in a tavern. The Rogue stole all the Knight's money before I even had time to do an intro. A herald comes into the tavern and asks for brave adventurers for a dangerous mission. The PCs notice they don't have any money so they accept.

The herald takes them to the king who says his son has been kidnapped by goblins. The PCs don't make any attempt to show any deference to the king at all. Some of them bow slightly. The Rogue makes a special point of being defiant. The king is desperate enough that he ignores it. He had some scouts report back that his son was taken to the caves of chaos.

The PCs get to the caves and search for footprints. They go into the cave with goblin tracks. They boldly go don the corridor and run into a patrol of 6 goblins. They raise the alarm as their first action. The PCs are soon attacked by 3 more goblins. The PCs quickly cast most of their spells and lose most of their hp.

When they think they've won, suddenly 3 more goblins and an ogre attack them. They pull through. But everyone is almost dead.

During this time there is some debate as to whether it takes an action to hide if you start the turn completely blocked from an enemy. I rule it doesnt.

The Wizard has prepared 2 burning hands. He casts one during the fight and rolls two 1s for damage making it do almost no damage. The Wizard player complains that his spells don't seem as useful as just using magic missile.

The PCs go through the secret passage into the ogre cave and close the door behind them. They find the keg of brandy. The Wizard says "perfect. Ive been looking for something to get me Intoxicated." The rest of the group looks at him confused and say "are we missing something?" He then explains that Intoxicated makes you take 1d6 less damage from attacks but makes you have disadvantage on your attacks. He points out that neither magic missile nor burning hands require an attack roll so it has no disadvantage for him at all. The Moradin cleric and fighter decide that getting drunk is a better advantage than disadvantage. They all get drunk. They all spend their hit dice healing. they aren't at full hit points.

The rogue meanwhile finds the potions and attempts to pocket them before anyone sees. He fails. They drunkenly get annoyed at him. He decides to pick a random potion and just drink it. The wizard attempts to stop him and fails. He has drank their only healing potion while at full hit points. They yell at him for drinking their loot.

I've been being nice to them so far given that there are 30 goblins still alive in this cave complex, the alarm has been raised, and they left the bodies of the dead goblins and ogre out in the open. However, I grow tired of watching them drink and argue over loot, so the 22 goblin hunting party overhears their argument and opens the door.

The wizard runs out there and burning hands a bunch of them. He rolls two 1s on his damage again. The goblins all attack him. Despite being Intoxicated and it removing most of the damage he took, he still goes down. The fighter runs out there and drags him back into the ogre cave.

The cleric of Moradin cures the wizard then stands in the 5 foot wide doorway and continually takes the dodge action. He's been commenting since he started reading the rules about how broken it is. Between his increased AC from dodge and the 1d6 less damage for being intoxicated he is able to stand there for multiple rounds not taking any damage. The wizard runs forward, magic missiles someone then runs back behind the cleric every round.

After the goblins realize they aren't hurting the cleric and they are down to 10 of them, they decide to run. The wizard chases them down he hallway trying to kill them. They turn around and hit him with a bunch of arrows and he goes down again.

The party then decides to barricade themselves in the ogre cave. The cleric of pelor first decides to make healing potions. I rule she can find the herbs in the forest nearby and they use the empty vial they have to make it.

It then became pretty late and we had been running one long battle against goblins for nearly an hour. I wasn't feeling that great and listening to them complain about how it was way too easy for them to die in 5e and how they enjoyed their 4e sessions better was starting to grate on my nerves so we stopped for the evening.

Session 2 is tonight. Will update with more after that happens.

A couple of ways I ruled differently than you on our recent playtest:

1. Dwarves are immune to poison and can't be intoxicated from alcohol.

2. We thought the defender feat was excellent (the knight could attack and use it each turn as the reaction mentions nothing about giving up an action). Also since the feat say "a creature within 5 feet of you" (similar wording to grease, cure light wounds, healing word, etc.), I ruled that the knight could use his shield reaction to protect himself instead of an ally if he wanted. It was cool and seemed balanced. A goblin would go to throw a spear at him, but he raised his shield to block it (why shouldn't his shield training be able to protect himself as well as allies anyways, though I am not sure if this is their intent). Note while he almost always blocked the first blow, subsequent attacks against him would not have that disadvantage as he is distracted with the first guy.

Edit: Also, we're pretty sure intoxicated was just thrown in there as a joke, so I'm sure I would have played it differently if anyone was actually interested in becoming drunk (they weren't).
 

1. Dwarves are immune to poison and can't be intoxicated from alcohol.
I just can't imagine dnd where dwarves can't get drunk. Like people have said in another thread, I'd say they couldnt die from alcohol poisoning but still would get drunk.
2. We thought the defender feat was excellent (the knight could attack and use it each turn as the reaction mentions nothing about giving up an action). Also since the feat say "a creature within 5 feet of you" (similar wording to grease, cure light wounds, healing word, etc.), I ruled that the knight could use his shield reaction to protect himself instead of an ally if he wanted. It was cool and seemed balanced. A goblin would go to throw a spear at him, but he raised his shield to block it (why shouldn't his shield training be able to protect himself as well as allies anyways, though I am not sure if this is their intent). Note while he almost always blocked the first blow, subsequent attacks against him would not have that disadvantage as he is distracted with the first guy.
My rules lawyer/wizard attempted this argument. I decided that you can't be within 5 ft of yourself. Be definition "within" means between you an some distance. It starts outside you. Besides, the feat is called guardian so it's fairly clear that it's intent is to protect OTHER people. Besides, the cleric of Moradin already has an AC so high that most enemies can't hit him. He already has the benefit of his shield.

In both 3e and 4e they used the wording "YOU or a target within x feet" when they wanted to include yourself.

As for the using actions up to take a reaction....I had just read the L&L article that said "in 5e we will speed up combat by making it so you only get one action per round no matter what. If you wanted to take an action outside your turn you have to give up the action on your turn."

Then the section on reactions is a little ambiguous. It says "a reaction is an action you take outside your turn. The most common way to take a reaction is to ready an action." To me that said "In order to take a reaction, you need to ready one."

Now that I've re read it a couple of times I'm fairly certain I was wrong. Still, the ability to take your action AND another one is contrary to what they said in the L&L article. So, it still confuses me a bit.
Edit: Also, we're pretty sure intoxicated was just thrown in there as a joke, so I'm sure I would have played it differently if anyone was actually interested in becoming drunk (they weren't).
I'm not sure of that. Part of the adventure actually has them make saving throws or become intoxicated. I can also sort of see the logic that says that hitpoints are partially just pain and you feel it less while drunk so you take less damage. Though, it is very overpowered. And my group is good at seeking out anything overpowered and using it to their advantage.
 

As far as the playtest goes, I'm not sure that the current rules set you've got is going to cut it for your group. You may want to hold off for now and try again at a later time when they've added some optional features to the playtest, like grid combat and the complex Fighter.

Certain things, though, just come off as unreasonable. Complaining that a spell is worse than Magic Missile because you roll poorly? I doubt that'd be the case on a high roll. Stealing from each other. Drinking a potion before anyone can stop you. Not caring about the king at all. The Wizard doing whatever he wants (like chasing down 10 guys attacking them) and putting the entire party in undue danger.

It's times like these that I'm thankful that I've found a group that has a play style similar to mine. I just couldn't enjoy the group you've described in your report. I'm glad I have my group. I think we can use quite a few systems and have fun with them without as much uninteresting inter-party conflict, bad decisions, whining, or pointless arrogance. Maybe that's harsh, but it's just how it comes off to me. As always, though, play what you like :)
 

I think Intoxicated is great and hope it doesn't change in the final rules, except that being intoxicated should also grant enemies Advantage in attacking you. That means getting drunk is a great strategy for getting into a bar brawl or for engaging in pest control, but a potentially deadly error when fighting someone who can seriously hurt you.

The problem is that Wizard doesn't have to roll to hit with his spells.

Go back to rolling attack vs. defense. If the spell affects more than one target, the Wizard has to roll a separate attack against every target, making his drunken burning hands shenanigans practically useless.

Is that potentially a lot of rolls for a well-placed burst? Yes.

Is it that many more rolls than the Drizzt clone wading into the same group of enemies with his Two Weapon Fighting and his Cleaving? Nope.
 
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My rules lawyer/wizard attempted this argument. I decided that you can't be within 5 ft of yourself. Be definition "within" means between you an some distance. It starts outside you. Besides, the feat is called guardian so it's fairly clear that it's intent is to protect OTHER people. Besides, the cleric of Moradin already has an AC so high that most enemies can't hit him. He already has the benefit of his shield.

The "within" and "ally/creature" wording is also present on all the spells, such as grease and healing word (i.e. you can cast grease on a creature within 100 feet on you to give it advantage on checks to squeeze through tight spaces). It only makes sense that you can heal/cast spells on your self despite this wording IMO. I recognize the intent for this feat was probably different, but we thought it made sense in the world that the knight not only got the regular AC bonus, but was also even more awesome in its use (which he clearly is since he can do things with a shield that other people can't even with conservative interpretation). I thought it better to give it the benefit of the doubt to start with just to test balance.

I noted that your players weren't impressed with it, and this is a potentially more interesting way to play it, as it pretty much comes up every round or so, making the cleric feel more involved than just attacking again and again. He really feels like a tank, both in protecting and in withstanding the tide as it were.
 

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