Legendweaver
Explorer
Earlier tonight, I managed to rope some player into a playtest of Level Up. One of my biggest complaints about D&D combat is that by default it devolves into a static slugfest, so I was excited to see how "Press the Attack" and "Fall Back" might make combat more dynamic, but I was concerned "Press the Attack" would make sneak attacking trivial.
We selected five level 1 pregenerated characters (Gia, Gywven, Krarg, Maika, and Varskyle from Resources — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)) and ran them through a gauntlet of fights with which I'm quite familiar - they're key fights from a starter adventure of my own creation I've run many times over the years to introduce new players to D&D 5E. These scenarios include:
1. A solo bugbear
2. A solo ogre
3. goblins (4) and a goblin boss
4. A horde of goblins (8)
I used monster stats from the LU Monstrous Menagerie, and tried to use Level Up's rules as written. To my knowledge, the only relevant new rules were the monster stats, pregen character abilities, and the new actions "Press the Attack" and "Fall Back." We made attack rolls, but used average damage to reduce randomization. For scenarios 1 and 2, everyone "took 10" on initiative; for (3) and (4), everyone rolled dex-based initiative.
Here's what happened:
1. Solo Bugbear: Gywven went first, and made a regular ranged attack, which hit. The bugbear went next and didn't press the attack, but dealt a solid blow to Varskyle. Gia went next, closed, and pressed the attack. The bugbear fell back - but the attack still landed. Varskyle and Karaz went next; both pressed the attack and both hit. The bugbear was dead before Maika took her first turn.
In this scenario and this reading of the rule, "Fall Back" was an ineffective counter for "Press the Attack"; it cancelled one instance of advantage, but the action economy multiplied the effectiveness of "Press the Attack." Virtually every PC hit with advantage without any need to maneuver or think creatively. It was pretty bland, and the bugbear looked like a coward.
2. Solo Ogre: Similar setup, but rated as "hard" by the LU encounter table. Actions played out mostly the same (it's embarrassingly easy to hit AC when you get advantage on every hit!) but the ogre survived the first round, and repositioned to make a sweeping strike against four characters...only to miss two of the attacks thanks in part to the disadvantage imposed by falling back earlier in the fight. The next attack ended the ogre after just a round and a half of combat - and again made an uncharacteristic retreat.
1.b These disappointing experiences made us question our reading of "Fall Back" - was it supposed to negate all future "Press the Attack" bonuses for the entire round? We decided to run scenario 1 again with this alternate reading. This time, the bugbear survived to round two, but didn't land a second attack (it couldn't "press the attack" on its turn because it had "fallen back" its previous round) ...and was gone before it got another chance.
3: Goblins and a boss. I'll spare the details because this fight was complicated, but the new rules worked pretty well; "Press the attack" and "Fall back" created a couple interesting knots of movement on the flanks from characters who weren't as worried about counterattacks
4. Horde of Goblins: This was a total bloodbath for the players. I knew the action economy was going to be against them, but press the attack took this to another level. One goblin pressed the attack early, and a PC melee combatant made the mistake of "falling back" in response. More goblins pressed into the gap and ganged up on weaker PCs. The melee combatant who fell back were unable to land hits on the closest goblins (which hadn't pressed) and couldn't get to the other players. One player was unconscious from arrows before taking a single turn. Two more died before they took a second turn...and the others fell shortly thereafter. My players left feeling that "Fall Back" action was a mechanics trap to avoid.
Am I missing some big piece of the rules here that brings these back into balance? How did official playtests go when it came to solo and/or horde fights?
TLDR: It's anecdotal evidence, but "Press the Attack" seemed to be a potent multiplier of preexisting action economy imbalance. PCs vs. solo monsters became significantly easier, and PCs vs. hordes became much harder. Maybe this was a desired outcome (it's probably more realistic...?) but it's the opposite direction O5E has been going, and I certainly want both dangerous solo monsters and survivable (but challenging) hordes. While this rule does seem to make pitched battles between equally sized groups of combatants more dynamic, it imposed a high cost.
Also, "Fall Back" seems to be an ineffective counter. In the RAW case, when you're outnumbered, someone is going to get advantage even if you fall back, and you pay a high cost - it can easily cost a melee combatant's effectiveness for an entire round.
Now, having said all this, I know Morrus said the rules for "Press the Attack" are out-of-date, so I'd love to read the latest text (and even run a play test of that). Absent that, here's my suggestion for rewording these two actions:
Press the Attack:
As a bonus action, target one adjacent creature. If this creature reacts to this action with the "Fall Back" action, you may optionally advance forward 5 ft. into the space they vacated and attack normally; otherwise, you gain an expertise die when making melee attacks against the target creature until the start of your next turn. In either case, all attacks against you are made with advantage until the start of your next turn. You may only Press the Attack when you do not have disadvantage on attacks.
Fall back:
As a reaction when targeted by "Press the Attack," you yield ground and move backward 5 ft., but no creature can gain an expertise dice when making attacks on you as a result of the "Press the Attack" action until the start of your turn. However, your caution prevents you from landing critical hits or taking the "Press the Attack" action until the end of your next turn. A creature using the Rage class feature cannot choose to fall back.
We selected five level 1 pregenerated characters (Gia, Gywven, Krarg, Maika, and Varskyle from Resources — Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition (A5E)) and ran them through a gauntlet of fights with which I'm quite familiar - they're key fights from a starter adventure of my own creation I've run many times over the years to introduce new players to D&D 5E. These scenarios include:
1. A solo bugbear
2. A solo ogre
3. goblins (4) and a goblin boss
4. A horde of goblins (8)
I used monster stats from the LU Monstrous Menagerie, and tried to use Level Up's rules as written. To my knowledge, the only relevant new rules were the monster stats, pregen character abilities, and the new actions "Press the Attack" and "Fall Back." We made attack rolls, but used average damage to reduce randomization. For scenarios 1 and 2, everyone "took 10" on initiative; for (3) and (4), everyone rolled dex-based initiative.
Here's what happened:
1. Solo Bugbear: Gywven went first, and made a regular ranged attack, which hit. The bugbear went next and didn't press the attack, but dealt a solid blow to Varskyle. Gia went next, closed, and pressed the attack. The bugbear fell back - but the attack still landed. Varskyle and Karaz went next; both pressed the attack and both hit. The bugbear was dead before Maika took her first turn.
In this scenario and this reading of the rule, "Fall Back" was an ineffective counter for "Press the Attack"; it cancelled one instance of advantage, but the action economy multiplied the effectiveness of "Press the Attack." Virtually every PC hit with advantage without any need to maneuver or think creatively. It was pretty bland, and the bugbear looked like a coward.
2. Solo Ogre: Similar setup, but rated as "hard" by the LU encounter table. Actions played out mostly the same (it's embarrassingly easy to hit AC when you get advantage on every hit!) but the ogre survived the first round, and repositioned to make a sweeping strike against four characters...only to miss two of the attacks thanks in part to the disadvantage imposed by falling back earlier in the fight. The next attack ended the ogre after just a round and a half of combat - and again made an uncharacteristic retreat.
1.b These disappointing experiences made us question our reading of "Fall Back" - was it supposed to negate all future "Press the Attack" bonuses for the entire round? We decided to run scenario 1 again with this alternate reading. This time, the bugbear survived to round two, but didn't land a second attack (it couldn't "press the attack" on its turn because it had "fallen back" its previous round) ...and was gone before it got another chance.
3: Goblins and a boss. I'll spare the details because this fight was complicated, but the new rules worked pretty well; "Press the attack" and "Fall back" created a couple interesting knots of movement on the flanks from characters who weren't as worried about counterattacks
4. Horde of Goblins: This was a total bloodbath for the players. I knew the action economy was going to be against them, but press the attack took this to another level. One goblin pressed the attack early, and a PC melee combatant made the mistake of "falling back" in response. More goblins pressed into the gap and ganged up on weaker PCs. The melee combatant who fell back were unable to land hits on the closest goblins (which hadn't pressed) and couldn't get to the other players. One player was unconscious from arrows before taking a single turn. Two more died before they took a second turn...and the others fell shortly thereafter. My players left feeling that "Fall Back" action was a mechanics trap to avoid.
Am I missing some big piece of the rules here that brings these back into balance? How did official playtests go when it came to solo and/or horde fights?
TLDR: It's anecdotal evidence, but "Press the Attack" seemed to be a potent multiplier of preexisting action economy imbalance. PCs vs. solo monsters became significantly easier, and PCs vs. hordes became much harder. Maybe this was a desired outcome (it's probably more realistic...?) but it's the opposite direction O5E has been going, and I certainly want both dangerous solo monsters and survivable (but challenging) hordes. While this rule does seem to make pitched battles between equally sized groups of combatants more dynamic, it imposed a high cost.
Also, "Fall Back" seems to be an ineffective counter. In the RAW case, when you're outnumbered, someone is going to get advantage even if you fall back, and you pay a high cost - it can easily cost a melee combatant's effectiveness for an entire round.
Now, having said all this, I know Morrus said the rules for "Press the Attack" are out-of-date, so I'd love to read the latest text (and even run a play test of that). Absent that, here's my suggestion for rewording these two actions:
Press the Attack:
As a bonus action, target one adjacent creature. If this creature reacts to this action with the "Fall Back" action, you may optionally advance forward 5 ft. into the space they vacated and attack normally; otherwise, you gain an expertise die when making melee attacks against the target creature until the start of your next turn. In either case, all attacks against you are made with advantage until the start of your next turn. You may only Press the Attack when you do not have disadvantage on attacks.
Fall back:
As a reaction when targeted by "Press the Attack," you yield ground and move backward 5 ft., but no creature can gain an expertise dice when making attacks on you as a result of the "Press the Attack" action until the start of your turn. However, your caution prevents you from landing critical hits or taking the "Press the Attack" action until the end of your next turn. A creature using the Rage class feature cannot choose to fall back.
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