Please call female deities 'goddesses.'

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DreamChaser said:
That said, I don't think that people who say "sorceress" are sexist, any more than I think everyone who says "gypped" is racist (look it up). Rather, it is just a sign of a basic cultural bias in our language that most of us don't take the time to think about.

DC

The cultural bias is systemic racism and sexism. Conscious bigots are easy to spot, to ridicule, and to other; people profiting from a racist system without actively hating people or being aware of it can still be racist. Not having to think about it is a privilege.
 

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The point about plurals is a good one, I think. If I talk about "princes," that's probably going to be taken to mean a strictly male group; I'd have to say "princes and princesses," or more likely "royalty," if I wanted to include the possibility of both sexes. So "prince" is gender-specific and it's incorrect to talk about, say, Prince Buttercup (from the Prince Bride ;) ).

On the other hand, if I say "actors," that can easily mean a mixed-sex group of people who perform in movies for a living. So there's a much better case for considering "actor" to be a gender-neutral term.

"God" falls into the latter category. If I talk about "the Greek gods," that includes Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite as well as Zeus, Ares, and Hephaestus.

Overall, I think I agree with the poster who suggested simply using "deity" instead, with "gods" limited to the occasional mixed-sex plural. (I prefer to use "power" as a more inclusive term, incorporating demon lords, archangels, and archdevils as well as actual deities; pretty much any extremely potent being of a somewhat transcendent nature.)
 
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I like "Deity" more than "Power", because that particular use of the word "Power" could quickly become the "Level" of Fourth Edition.

Speculative 4th Edition Rulebook said:
A character's devotion to a Power grants powerful powers; however, they come at a price: A martial Marshall cannot use a power in a way opposed to the interests of the Power, not even if the Marshall is of higher level than the level of the power, level of the Power, or level of the dungeon.

Not a good idea, not even for Dr. Seuss.
 

Brown Jenkin said:
Can't we just call them godfolk?

That's *so* 3e. In 4e, we're taking things in a new direction. They're now called Wargods. Yes, even the gods of agriculture and doorways. ;)

Speculative 4th Edition Rulebook said:
A character's devotion to a Power grants powerful powers; however, they come at a price: A martial Marshall cannot use a power in a way opposed to the interests of the Power, not even if the Marshall is of higher level than the level of the power, level of the Power, or level of the dungeon.

You forgot to use War at least 5 times, but yeah...

....sounds kind of like Magic of Incarnum....;)
 

TwinBahamut said:
I have never seen any piece of writing, ever, that used the term "god" for a female deity. It is jarring and extremely awkward. English is a language which has slightly different nouns for different genders, and there is no getting around this. You can't use the language differently than everyone else on a whim! It is like calling a female monarch a King, or a female child of a monarch a Prince. It is like calling a female adult a Man, or a female child a Boy. It doesn't work, and it just isn't done in the English language (and most other languages do similar, or to a bigger extreme).

You would think that being female is somehow supposed to be demeaning, with the kind of attitude in which you avoid any possible reference to the possible femininity of an individual. I don't like it at all.

This
 


TwinBahamut said:
You would think that being female is somehow supposed to be demeaning, with the kind of attitude in which you avoid any possible reference to the possible femininity of an individual. I don't like it at all.
In fact, it has nothing to do with being woman or man. Not only is it not to be expressed in a demeaning manner, it's not to be expressed differently at all. Man is woman is man. We are all people. We don't discern the difference, not because we don't want to offend lesser genders, but more to the point that it doesn't matter. We are all the same, essentially.

God is Goddess in nature of power. End of story.
 

*snore*

Huh? (smacks lips)

I'm someone who has strong opinions on the subject of gender in language, but this argument can never get anywhere. Here are the reasons why:

1. Language evolves. Rather rapidly, in fact. What was acceptable a generation ago isn't acceptable today. One reason that "sexist" words are less acceptable today is simply that people have begun thinking about them more, but the gender-neutrality of English has been an issue at least since Victorian times.

2. When language changes it happens on a word-for-word basis. Either the community at large accepts a new word wholesale (e.g. "blog") or it is quickly forgotten. The same goes for words that shift and expand to meet the needs of their society. In any democratic society, no matter how PC, there is no compelling reason for "prince/princess" to acquire a fully gender-neutral form. The masculine connotation of 'god', however, I think has weakened slightly in recent years.

3. The purpose of language is first and foremost to convey meaning. In some sentences it is better to be gender-neutral, because you want to avoid adding a connotation you don't intend. In other sentences it is better to be gender-specific because it adds *correct* information to the idea. Language is sufficiently flexible to permit both.

In quality writing, one chooses the word that brings the correct connotation as well as the correct meaning. "Goddess", for example, connotes mythology for most native English speakers. When we're writing fantasy, we often deliberately choose old-fashioned words to create an atmosphere of antiquity. Tolkien went so far as to encourage this atmosphere by choosing words with Germanic/Norse roots rather than Greek or Latin whenever possible, and adopting sentence structures which were more common in Middle English.

4. Finally, every word carries all its possible meanings with it, all the time. The context usually makes it clear which one is intended, but you cannot prevent the other meanings from coloring the sentence. This is especially true when the definitions overlap.

For example, consider the following Modern English sentences:

"Space travel is the destiny of mankind."
The context makes it obvious that "humanity" is the intended meaning of "mankind", but the sentence still implies that space travel will always be a male endeavor. To put it another way, it requires conscious effort on the reader's part to interpret this sentence in a perfectly gender-neutral way. If we assume that "humanity" is the writer's intent, then they sacrificed clarity (adding a counterfactual connotation) for a literary/oratory connotation.

(That is, they were probably hoping that their language would remind the reader of other powerful works that used the word "mankind". This is a poor reason!)

"I am not a number! I am a man!"
The speaker means "human", but in this case the additional connotation of "male" adds correct and useful information to the sentence. If the speaker were a woman, she would never use "man". She would have chosen "person", "human being", or "woman" because these words are all fully correct.

(This sentence is exceptionally powerful because the two meanings of "man" are both fully appropriate. If the Prisoner were female then this line probably would not have been memorable. That may seem unfair, but writers have to work with what they're given--there are other strong lines in the show, after all.)

"Zebi is the goddess of Love and War"
Well, why not? In this case, it would leave the reader hanging not to specify a gender if you can. Would you introduce a character in a novel without finding a way to tell the reader whether it is a man or a woman? I think the reader will assume that the author's word choice is supposed to carry that information.

In conclusion, there is nothing sexist about "goddess"--it just conveys additional information which is sometimes useful. The masculine connotation of "god" will probably never go away, given the state of modern religions.

The phrase "the gods", however, nearly always means "the pantheon" just as "mankind" nearly always means "humanity". The connotations, however, are different.

"The gods" connotes masculinity and antiquity.
"The pantheon" connotes academic writing, and may make the prose sound like a lesson.
"The deities" connotes nothing in particular.

The fact is, there is no gender-neutral term that also connotes antiquity. So the authors of the PH are left with a choice. Do they err on the side of flavor, describing the deities in terms that remind the reader of the past? Or do they choose the side of gender-neutrality, at the risk of sounding a little more like a textbook? There is no "correct" choice for an RPG, which is halfway between a textbook and a novel.

In conclusion, it is usually silly to adopt a blanket policy for gendered words. The use of pronouns is a whole 'nother can of worms. All I'll say is that I like the way 3rd edition handled it.
 
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neceros said:
In fact, it has nothing to do with being woman or man. Not only is it not to be expressed in a demeaning manner, it's not to be expressed differently at all. Man is woman is man. We are all people. We don't discern the difference, not because we don't want to offend lesser genders, but more to the point that it doesn't matter. We are all the same, essentially.

God is Goddess in nature of power. End of story.
This doesn't even make any sense at all.

First, there is a difference. Denying just makes you looks silly. Men and Women are both Human, but they are not the same thing. You should use the appropriate words to differentiate, or else it leads to confusion. I mean, my identical twin brother and I are far more similar to each other than I will ever resemble any woman. Yet, I prefer to have us remain distinct, with people referring to us by our proper names and distinct identities, rather than us get lumped together by our similarities. I detest nothing more than a world of homogenous identity.

Second, you are asking something that goes against human nature. Gender differences in language are not an artifact of any individual culture, they are a universal tendency among all human languages. More than 70% of all human languages have a distinction between male and female in some kind way, and pretty much all of those "mark" the female term, adding a complexity to the male term in order to get the female term. This is one of the very few universals of human language. The distinction between male and female is deeply ingrained in all animals, and is an important part of human thought and communication. Reducing that based on some, poorly thought out "ideal" is absurd.

The only logic behind removing the feminine word "goddess" is predicated on the idea that using feminine words is demeaning. It assumes the inferiority of women in the very attempt to fight sexism. It is a futile gesture.

As a whole, nouns differentiated by gender have hundreds and thousands of years more history in the English language than either modern feminism or early modern sexism. Identifying such words as the root cause of the latter is nonsense.
 

shalaqua said:
Just to add to the debate, shouldn't female Warlocks be called Witches?

Since they're not derived from the same roots, I'd say there's no linguistic reason. I wouldn't object to this usage in a campaign, however, since the warlock class feels pretty "witchy".

Ben
 

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