Please forgive my ignorance....

[Hopeless Prodigy]

I am well aware that this question has probably already been asked more than once on these message boards, but I must seek the answer for myself. So someone, please enlighten my ignorance.....

It seems to me, as stated in the PHB, that a 2nd level Barbarian cannot be subject to a sneak attack from a 15th level rogueif the rogue attempts this attack from a point of surprise (invisiblity or simple ambush). Am I missing something here? Only the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability states that this defense can be overcome by a character with sufficient levels (4) in a class with sneak attack ability. The standard Uncanny Dodge states no such thing. Again, am I missing something? Is the rogue now forced to have to work in cordnation with another person (flanking) in order to possibly hope to sneak attack the 2nd level Brb?? This seems a bit over the top to me. Has there been any further clarification upon this? If not, has anyone house ruled this?

Please let me know.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

Uncanny Dodge allows them to keep their dex to AC when they would normally be flat-footed or in a "surprise" round, so you are correct - it's hard to get a sneak attack on a 2nd level barbarian w/out the help of flank or some other means of denying them their dex to AC.

 

[Shin Okada]

You are missing nothing. The rule has been so since the release of 3.0e

 

[Hopeless Prodigy]

I didn't think I was wrong...it's just the ability seems inordinarily powerful. More powerful than Improved Uncanny Dodge really. Thanks for the verification.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Well uncanny dodge makes you immune to suprise.

Improved Uncanny dodge makes you immune to flanking (except by a rogue +4 levels higher you).

IMO the latter is more powerful as flanking tends to happen more often in my experience.

 

[Piratecat]

By the way, welcome.

 

[Psimancer]

We perceived this as an issue as well and came up with the following feat:

UNCANNY FEINT [GENERAL]

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Bluff), base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: Once per attack you may, as a free action, make a Bluff check to feint in combat. Opponents with the Uncanny Dodge class ability lose all benefits of that ability if they fail their Sense Motive check against you to resist the feint.

Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action. A character with the Uncanny Dodge class ability cannot be denied their Dexterity bonus unless immobilised. A fighter may select Uncanny Feint as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

We perceived this as an issue as well and came up with the following feat:

UNCANNY FEINT [GENERAL]

Quick question, Psimancer:

Why can't you Feint a Barbarian or a Rogue to begin with?

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it.

Note that Feinting does not say it makes your opponent Flat-Footed (which is a condition that generally exists only at the beginning of combat). Rather, it denies them their Dexterity bonus.

Someone with Uncanny Dodge is not protected from ever losing their Dex bonus to AC, merely protected against losing it when Flat Footed or when attacked by an Invisible opponent.

In other words, Flat Footed -> Denied Dex, but Denied Dec !-> Flat Footed.

Am I missing something?

 

[Lasher Dragon]

Well, Uncanny Dodge AFAIK has nothing to do with invisible opponents - one would need blind fight for that.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, Uncanny Dodge AFAIK has nothing to do with invisible opponents - one would need blind fight for that.

Right.

Well, apart from the line that says "She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker."

-Hyp.