Please Help: Diplomacy Checks, Dispel Magic

[RJSmalls]

Hiya everyone,

Got a couple rules-related questions that have been stock-piling. Actually, only 3 of 'em. If you have a moment, I'd appreciate some help.

1] What's the limit to a Diplomacy check?

The DMG lists DC's to change an NPC's initial attitude via a Diplomacy (or CHA) check. Some of the DC's are not impossible to achieve for higher-level and/or highly charismatic PC's. In fact, it'd be fairly commonplace for a 18 CHA mid-level character to be able to change a Hostile NPC to an Indifferent NPC (DC 25). One of my players wants to know why he can (or cannot) use Diplomacy prior to any impending combat and/or as a standard action during the combat. Diplomacy is not charm monster certainly, but how can I prevent it being used as such when the rules seem to allude that it can and should work.

Example: PC's are confronted by a band of demons. Demons are, of course, hostile to the good-aligned party. The PC in question wants to be able to attempt a Diplomacy check (DC 25) to change their attitude to Indifferent, and thus be able to skirt the demonic band and allow the party to continue on its way.

In some cases, I would certainly allow a Dip check and reward its use with experience. But I want to avoid the PC attempting a Dip check any time he comes across intelligent, hostile beings. Is there anything, mind you - in the rules, that would not require me to simply Rule 0 that some creatures cannot be swayed by Diplomacy checks, despite the information within the Core Rules.

I have to be missing something here. Please help.

2] The same PC would like to use his polymorph other to poly ogres to toads. His buddy would collect the toads in a sack. During a future combat, his buddy would toss the sack toward new enemies, and our spellcasting friend would cast dispel magic on the collection of toads that spilled out. Since PO doesn't have a (D) in its duration, I assume a Dispel Magic is required. The description for Dispel Magic says that a caster may automatically Dispel his own spell effects (without a caster level check). So...can he do this? Would he change just one toad per DM casting, or would they all change? That is, could he use a DM with the Area Effect option to change all the toads to ogres?

3] Finally, under the Concentration skill it talks about making a check if you are distracted (by another spell) even if that spell doesn't inflict damage. The same PC wonders if a counter-spell attempt by himself, even if he fails his roll, would be enough to warrant a Concentration check by the opponent spellcaster. I said no, but I would appreciate some support on this, or someone showing me why I'm wrong.

Thanks for your help. Croth, Cali, anyone - would really be grateful if some of you experts could step in and help me out. While my PC is not a rules' lawyer or whiner, he does know the rules very well. If you make an argument, I would appreciate reference page numbers wherever possible, should you have the time.

Thanks!

RJ

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I don't know about 1), but I can take 2) and 3).

2) If you do an area dispel, you can automatically dispel all those poly others. Just be sure to feed those toads.

3) The Dispel Magic attempt to counterspell doesn't target the spellcaster, only the spell. Thus the caster need not make a concentration check.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hiya everyone,

Got a couple rules-related questions that have been stock-piling. Actually, only 3 of 'em. If you have a moment, I'd appreciate some help.

1] What's the limit to a Diplomacy check?

The DMG lists DC's to change an NPC's initial attitude via a Diplomacy (or CHA) check. Some of the DC's are not impossible to achieve for higher-level and/or highly charismatic PC's. In fact, it'd be fairly commonplace for a 18 CHA mid-level character to be able to change a Hostile NPC to an Indifferent NPC (DC 25). One of my players wants to know why he can (or cannot) use Diplomacy prior to any impending combat and/or as a standard action during the combat. Diplomacy is not charm monster certainly, but how can I prevent it being used as such when the rules seem to allude that it can and should work.

Example: PC's are confronted by a band of demons. Demons are, of course, hostile to the good-aligned party. The PC in question wants to be able to attempt a Diplomacy check (DC 25) to change their attitude to Indifferent, and thus be able to skirt the demonic band and allow the party to continue on its way.

It would depend upon the situation. Are the demons in a mood to talk? Often they attack first and ask questions never. It's rather hard to do a diplomacy check when a demon is trying to slaughter you. In any event, it shouldn't be possible for a diplomacy check to work while the other PCs are killing his friends.

In all cases, I'd suggest some circumstance bonusses or penalties. Racial enemies of the NPCs (elves to a party of gnolls, for instance) in the party: -5 to the check. PCs wear badges/symbols of an enemy (ex. walking around in Rohan wearing the eye of Mordor on your shield or a paladin of Pholtus walking into a temple of Iuz) -10 (and NPCs inclined to shoot first and ask questions later). PCs have personal reputations as enemies of demons/orcs/whatever and are recognized -10 to the check. (The orcs of the Misty Mountains weren't about to let Thorin Oakenshield go no matter how polite he was).

Another way you could handle demon-type cases is like this: Make diplomacy take at least 1 full round like a 1 round casting time spell.

1. Roll initiative-PC wins initiative.

2. PC begins his "can't we all just get along speech"

3. Other PCs wait to see what happens--ready actions to attack if attacked.

4. Demons aren't particularly interested yet and launch into the group. PC's readied actions go off first.

6. Beginning of PC's next round. You make his diplomacy roll in secret. Be sure to apply a huge circumstance penalty if the PCs attacked--probably -5 if only subdual damage was done, -10 if real damage was done to the demons, and automatic failure if one of them was killed (although you might make that a bonus if the PC is really trying to intimidate the demons rather than make them his friends).

7. Other PCs have to decide whether or not to attack. (Without knowing the result). If they continue to attack, make the diplomacy check automatically fail--it'll sound like the martians from Mars Attacks carrying around the speakers: "Do not run. We are your friends" while they kill everything in sight.

8. If the demons were convinced by the roll and the PCs stopped fighting too, the battle stops. Otherwise it continues.

In some cases, I would certainly allow a Dip check and reward its use with experience. But I want to avoid the PC attempting a Dip check any time he comes across intelligent, hostile beings. Is there anything, mind you - in the rules, that would not require me to simply Rule 0 that some creatures cannot be swayed by Diplomacy checks, despite the information within the Core Rules.

That's a perfectly legitimate decision. There's plenty of stuff that you won't be able to get NPCs to do even if they're friendly to you. Do you want to take your poisoned assassin's dagger in to see the king? No matter how good of a friend the guard is, he won't let you do that. Do you want to convince the guard of the treasury to let you poke around unwatched with a big sack? Not even if you were his wife--he'll probably get executed by being boiled alive if he lets you do it. A lot of times, NPCs have sufficient motivation that they can't be swayed by anything short of Domination (not even charms--that's one of the wonders of Lawful monsters).

I have to be missing something here. Please help.

2] The same PC would like to use his polymorph other to poly ogres to toads. His buddy would collect the toads in a sack. During a future combat, his buddy would toss the sack toward new enemies, and our spellcasting friend would cast dispel magic on the collection of toads that spilled out. Since PO doesn't have a (D) in its duration, I assume a Dispel Magic is required. The description for Dispel Magic says that a caster may automatically Dispel his own spell effects (without a caster level check). So...can he do this? Would he change just one toad per DM casting, or would they all change? That is, could he use a DM with the Area Effect option to change all the toads to ogres?

Now that would work. One area dispel would automatically dispel the polymorph on all the ogres. Of course, it wouldn't make the ogres friendly to him. If they'd been friendly before, they probably aren't after being polymorphed into toads, stuffed in a dark sack and hurled at enemies. So, I'd expect that the ogres would all turn back into ogres, roll initiative and charge the mage to exact vengeance for their imprisonment. (And if he then tried a diplomacy to make them forgive him, he'd better have some way of avoiding their clubs while he's talking 'cause they won't be in a mood to listen.)

3] Finally, under the Concentration skill it talks about making a check if you are distracted (by another spell) even if that spell doesn't inflict damage. The same PC wonders if a counter-spell attempt by himself, even if he fails his roll, would be enough to warrant a Concentration check by the opponent spellcaster. I said no, but I would appreciate some support on this, or someone showing me why I'm wrong.

Nope. There's no specific rule for this but generally a counterspell either works or it doesn't. If the PC fails his spellcraft roll, he can't tell what the spell is and doesn't use a spell at all. Therefore, nothing happened to distract the spellcaster. If he makes the spellcraft roll, success at counterspelling is automatic (with the same spell) or dependent upon a dispel check with dispel magic. (PH 196) In the first case, there's no point to the concentration check because the spell is countered. In the second, nothing actually targetted the caster--the dispel magic targetted the spell he was casting not the caster--so there is no non-damaging spell that might force him to make a concentration check.

 

[Stalker0]

Basically, unless there's a really good reason your player can think of that the demon wouldn't slaughter you, then consider it a practically impossible task (+20 to DC).

Of course, with a good dip check and some bribing of sacrificies, hell maybe you could get by unscathed

 

[hong]

In some cases, I would certainly allow a Dip check and reward its use with experience. But I want to avoid the PC attempting a Dip check any time he comes across intelligent, hostile beings. Is there anything, mind you - in the rules, that would not require me to simply Rule 0 that some creatures cannot be swayed by Diplomacy checks, despite the information within the Core Rules.

I have to be missing something here. Please help.

Saying "they're not interested in talking" is no more rule 0 than saying "yes, you find a place to sell all your loot", or "your 15th level characters get to the Dark Castle of Zardoz, disposing of a few bandits along the way".

Tell your player that sometimes, people just aren't interested in talking.

 

[maddman75]

1) Explain to the player that the table is just a guide to the DM. He can't rely on those rules, and really has no business looking them up. Here's how I use diplomacy.

If a character wants to do something like this, he has to role-play it. When the DM decides that he may just be able to sway the creature, maybe, then he'll call for a diplomacy roll. The DC is decided by the DM, using the chart as a general guide.

If its a demon that hasn't had the pleasure of hearing a mortal scream for a thousand years, I don't care what you roll on your diplomacy. On the other tentacle, its a good idea to encourage your players to talk before fighting!

2) This is a valid tactic, though a glass jar full of goldfish has a bit more flavor. Remember that he will have no control over the creatures, and if they are at all intelligent, they'll likely go after the spellcaster first.

3) You are correct, counterspelling does not influence the caster, only his spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

2) This is a valid tactic, though a glass jar full of goldfish has a bit more flavor. Remember that he will have no control over the creatures, and if they are at all intelligent, they'll likely go after the spellcaster first.

Ah, that's why you cast Seeming first, to make all your enemies look just like you, then set off your Ogre bomb.

In conjunction with Improved Invisibility and Ventriloquism is even better...

-Hyp.

 

[Seravin]

I'll take a shot at this

In reference to number one, Diplomacy refers to interaction between two or more parties. I recall a guideline somewhere (sage maybe) that suggested at least 1 full minute of talking before Diplomacy could be used. I use that in my game. One of my players, a 12th level rogue, now has a diplomacy check of 26 before rolling (she took every possible diplomacy enhancing feat and synergy bonus she could get - except skill focus - strange that). Regardless, looking at the skill description, most of the examples require you to be on talking terms with the target. Diplomacy isn't just fast talk, it's convincing someone to see your point of view and agreeing with it. Hard to do when they're more interested in putting your point of view on a pike.

What I've decided in my game is that if hostilities haven't broken out (but looks like they're about to), someone can make a bluff check or charisma check to try and get people to talk. In essence they're trying to make everyone pause a moment and listen. I'd allow a +2 circumstance modifier for 5+ ranks in diplomancy. The DC would be the same as the check to modify someone from hostile to at least indifferent (circumstances depending) - maybe to helpful if inititive has already been rolled. The check doesn't change the NPC's reaction to the players, it's just enough to make them pause and consider negotiations. After that, the negotiations can begin.

Finally, Just because you've made someone helpful, doesn't mean you changed their goals. A helpful mindflayer may just decide you'd make a more interesting conversationalist then dessert; but he won't decide that the sunlight is better then the darkness. It's just that his plans for world domination now include a place for his most interesting pet.
I would certainly require a separate check for each goal that the player tried to sway an NPC from and those checks might be even more difficult then the DMG's suggestions, circumstances depending. As a helpful chamberlain I'd certainly put a good word in for you with the king, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop my plans for marrying his daughter, poisoning him, and putting my likeness on all the copper pieces in the land.

I'd also recommend taking a browse through Dragon #303. It has some useful suggestions for the negotiation skills.

<edited some spelling>

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If everybody has his weapons drawn, ready and willing to attack (and it did just not happen, because the master "stopped time"), than i doubt Diplomacy would work. But if both groups surprisingly see each other, but the speaker reacts first, it might work.

The typical situation were you might be able to use diplomacy against hostile targets is in a situation were combat is not a "wise" option - maybe when you are surrounded by the city guards...

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Darklone]

The problems I see with the ogres is: They will probably remember what you did to them and attack you.