Please rate Divine Vigor

[maddman75]

I have it at a 4. The Con bonus isn't the issue for me, for if I were to build a cleric like this I'd simply get an item that boosted STR or WIS instead. And the speed is a nice perk. The duration is decent as well, long enough for most fights and encounters.

The issue for me is the extra turning. Paladins and clerics don't get all that many feats in the first place. In my two years of running 3e, I've yet to have one run out of Turn attempts -- and I LIKE undead.

It has poor synergy, as Extra Turning is a good feat for a pally/cleric with a low CHA. Makes up for it a bit. But this feat (and most divine feats) give bigger bonuses to high CHA characters and require ET. With the exception of DIvine Might, which is quite a bit better than the rest of them.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Its TWO feats. Saying its one feat is like saying Spring Attack or Whirlwind are one feat when they are really 3 and 5 feats respectively. Knockdown would be awesome if it was one feat but its 3 feats.

Well, that rather depends upon your definitions. If you want to count it as two feat choices then you should include 4 extra turning attempts per day in the benefits you consider.

As far as I'm concerned, a feat like alluring (S&S) which has two +2/+2 feats as prereqs is 3 feats because the prereqs aren't useful in their own right. Similarly, a feat like signature spell (FRCS) is two feats because Spell Mastery is not useful in its own right.

A feat like Weapon specialization is really only one feat with a prerequisite because weapon focus is worthwhile on its own. In the same way, Whirlwind attack is a single feat with a lot of prerequisites--all of which (except possibly mobility) are useful in their own right.

Knockdown is a special case because of the negative synergy between it and one of its prerequisites.

In any event, having prerequisites doesn't mean that a feat has to be evaluated as if all of the prereqs cost feat slots and granted no benefits.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I have it at a 4. The Con bonus isn't the issue for me, for if I were to build a cleric like this I'd simply get an item that boosted STR or WIS instead. And the speed is a nice perk. The duration is decent as well, long enough for most fights and encounters.

The issue for me is the extra turning. Paladins and clerics don't get all that many feats in the first place. In my two years of running 3e, I've yet to have one run out of Turn attempts -- and I LIKE undead.

Odd. What kind of stats do your characters have? Playing Living Greyhawk's 28 point buy for two years, I've played in 4 modules where characters ran out of turning attempts and judged one where that happened. In one of those a cleric with extra turning ran out of turning attempts, in another, we had two clerics and both ran out of turning attempts (of course, one was a half-orc), and in a third, we had a cleric and a paladin who both ran out of turning attempts and then the paladin loaned the cleric his cloak of charisma so he could cheese another turning attempt out of the cloak.

Considering that there haven't been more than a half-dozen mods with lots of undead, that's a fair number of undead-heavy modules where extra turning was or would have been useful.

It has poor synergy, as Extra Turning is a good feat for a pally/cleric with a low CHA. Makes up for it a bit. But this feat (and most divine feats) give bigger bonuses to high CHA characters and require ET. With the exception of DIvine Might, which is quite a bit better than the rest of them.

Strange. I'd say that Divine Vigor and Divine Vengeance are the only divine feats that are worthwhile for anyone with a 13 or 14 charisma. (Not that either of them are very worthwhile, what with Divine Vengeance being a 2 and Divine Vigor being a 4.6 or so (I'm revising my estimate down)). Divine Might is quite a bit better than the rest of the divine feats (especially since it was FAQed to a free action) but it requires a high charisma bonus to be worthwhile.

Divine Vigor, OTOH, lasts 1 min/cha bonus which is more than enough for most combats, even on a 13 charisma. Divine Vengeance lasts two rounds and adds 2d6 damage no matter what so charisma is wholly irrelevant. (Except to the number of times/day it's usable).

 

[Quasqueton]

Divine feats don't follow the rules

Something that has bugged me a while about all the divine feats is why they aren't balanced first based on the core turning rules. Since these feats come through the turning ability:

Activating is a standard action, just like the turning ability they're based on.

Duration is one minute (10 rounds), just like the turning ability they're based on.

Charisma is the key ability, just like with the turning ability they're based on.

Some of the divine feats touch on these three set rules, but some show no relation to them at all.

For instance, Divine Vigor in this thread has a duration in minutes/charisma bonus. Others last one round, or 1 round/charisma bonus.

Shouldn't the designers have taken the above three core rules for turning ability, then built and balanced the divine feats around that base?

I don't mean to necessarily hijack the thread, but this is the last (I think) of the divine feats to be polled on and discussed, so I wanted to bring this up finally. It's nagged at the back of my mind for a long time now.

Quasqueton

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Divine feats don't follow the rules

Something that has bugged me a while about all the divine feats is why they aren't balanced first based on the core turning rules.

There are lots of details about the Divine Feats which betray a slipshod design effort and a lack of playtesting. I think you hit the nail on the head that the mechanics of the Divine Feats just don't make any sense when compared to what is in the PHB.

To raise a related point, all the feats in the PHB are helpful any character that qualifies for them. In particular note that the usefulness of the feats (with the exception of Combat Reflexes) have little of no relation to the character stats. Even CR is a reasonable feat for some characters of low Dex, and I would suggest the real world play value of CR to a PC of 18 Dex is neglibly different from one with a 12 Dex.

Now looks at the Divine feats. Many of them are sucker's bets if you don't a very high Cha.

Lousy design that.

There are no sucker's bets in the PHB.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Re: Re: Divine feats don't follow the rules

Hmm. Except Toughness. And Spell Mastery. And 9 out of 10 skill focus feats. And Combat Casting. And Endurance. And Dodge (unless a character has a good AC to start with).

There are no sucker's bets in the PHB.

 

[Li Shenron]

Re: Re: Re: Divine feats don't follow the rules

Hmm. Except Toughness. And Spell Mastery. And 9 out of 10 skill focus feats. And Combat Casting. And Endurance. And Dodge (unless a character has a good AC to start with).

Sorry to disagree, but I think it was quite clear from the start that there are better feats and worst feat, isn't it even written on the PHB? Anyway, IMHO no PHB feat really sucks. Some are definitely less worth, and some are really worth for some classes only: almost everyone of my very beginner players once wanted Toughness (including the Paladin!) because they were scared of dying prematurely, and I would not myself play a Wizard or Sorcerer without that feat at 1st level.

Skill Focus, Spell Focus and Weapon Focus we all know can be very differently worth depending what you choose them for. Few PCs would have WF(Dagger) when they can instead take a better proficiency for the same cost. But the feat is still worth to exist IMHO... or wouldn't you have been upset if the designers had written that you can take WF in every weapon except Dagger because it sucks?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Divine feats don't follow the rules

Anyway, IMHO no PHB feat really sucks.

You did see Endurance on his list, right?

-Hyp.