Please rate Lightning Fists

[smetzger]

Please rate the usefulness/must have of Lightning Fists

Lightning Fists [General]
REQ: Monk level 4th+, Dex 15+
Benefit: You can make two extra attacks in a round. All attacks made this round suffer a -5 attack penalty. This feat requires the full attack option. You cannot use Lightning Fists and flurry of blows at the same time.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Salutations,

I think it would have been better served to have it require a higher level- just because it invalidates flurry of blows.

Otherwise- I can see monks taking it.

FD

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I voted for below average. While I don't have any experience playing monks, I've seen a number of monks played in groups I've been a part of. In my experience, they usually have trouble ensuring that their blows will hit. Consequently, the -5 to all attacks would usually be more of a hindrance to their offensive capability than the extra attack would help it. (Even for monks that don't have trouble hitting, I suspect the -5 would give them trouble hitting).

-Glyn

 

[Christian]

I'm not going to re-do the math right here ... but I've done statistical analyses of both the flurry of blows class ability and the lightning fists feat. The lightning fists feat, in short, sucks boulders through a straw. While flurrying is almost always as good as or better than taking the regular iterative attacks, lightning fists is often worse. Furthermore, it anti-scales ... as the monk goes up in levels, the additional attacks for the -5 to apply to, and the fact that the percentage increase in attacks is lower, makes the feat less and less useful. IIRC, at 18th level (with a base 5 attacks per round), lightning fists is a dead feat-you're always better off taking your regular attacks or a flurry of blows.

I don't know why they didn't make lightning fists use the mechanics from the improved two-weapon fighting feat. It could have actually been some use ...

[Edit: Actually, at 4 attacks per round is where the lightning fists fades to uselessness ... Unless you needed a 19 or 20 to hit in the first place, you'll hit more often with a flurry. And if you need a 19 or 20 to hit, you'll be better served by the Run feat than Lightning Fists.]

 

[Christian]

I don't know why they didn't make lightning fists use the mechanics from the improved two-weapon fighting feat. It could have actually been some use ...

Yikes. I just re-did that analysis, and added a column for an ITWF version of Lightning Fists. That is vicious!

I thought that might be overpowered, until I did an equivalent analysis for regular TWF/ITWF. The effects of ITWF are magnified by a non-monk character's lower number of attacks and reduced iterative attack bonuses. If you're playing a melee ranger or another character who often fights with two weapons, and you don't take ITWF at the first level it's available to you, you are seriously missing out. That ability is much more useful than it may appear ...

Meanwhile, the monk is trying to keep up with the cruddy Lightning Fists feat.

 

[smetzger]

4.18 average after 20 votes.

10. None
9. None
8. Large and in Charge
7. Expert Tactician
6. Superior Expertise, Improved Sunder, Knock-Down
5. Close Quarters Fighting, Hold The Line
4. Blindsight 5-foot radius, Fists of Iron, Death Blow, Lightning Fists
3. Feign Weakness, Extra Stunning Attacks, Dual Strike, Circle Kick, Eyes in the Back of Your Head
2. Eagle Claw Attack, Improved Overrun, Dirty Fighting
1. None

 

[smetzger]

4.28 after 25 votes

Is it as good as Blinsight 5 ft radius?

 

[RigaMortus]

I think this is a good feat, especially if you use it with a Bow.

 

[smetzger]

I think this is a good feat, especially if you use it with a Bow.

Interesting, I thought "silly this is for unarmed combat only". However, according to the errated feat it looks like you could use Lightning Fists with any weapon.

However, if you consider the FAQ as part of the ruleset/errata you would need to rule that you must use unarmed attacks because the FAQ says "Lightning Fists works exactly like a flurry of blows,..." p.82

 

[Chris Nagle]

Well when you read it and flurry of blows I can get Lightning Fists 2 attacks and Flurry of Blows 1 attack extra.

So 4th level I am getting 5 attacks but at -7.

When you get to a higher level you could have 8 attacks a round.