Eternalknight
First Post
I like it, but in a way I hate it.... please tell me what you think! Rate it orm 1 (piece of hobbit snot) to 10 (crown jewel of programs)
Please rate PC Gen
- Thread starter Eternalknight
- Start date
I totally agree, I love using it, where can you get everything that is non-WoTC for a character or new supplements to make a character. However, it runs SLOW and is a serious resource hog on my gfs laptop it is the only thing I can run(yeah, it only has 128 MB of RAM). I use it to crank out my major NPCs and followers(only one as a template and then change the feats and what not). Just wish C++ was used, but that's because I'm selfish and don't use those non-windows platforms(*nix, MacOS).
Gariig
Gariig
MonkeyBoy
First Post
...
Lets be straight;
PCGen is the best Character Generator out there, by an order of magnitude.
On the other hand, it has some problems:
There are obvious reasons for most of these;
Its slow because they use Java, but the developers have a "euphamism inserted" for Java, so won't admit that their program is slow due to it.
It still has a lot of low-level bugs because A; fixing old bugs isn't "exciting" and B; there is minimal testing before release.
New revisions; 1 a week is too frequent, it destroys your testing time (for instance that embarrassing release where someone removed the alignment setting section completely - proving that the release had never been tested at all)
No cohesion; well thats a symptom of both "community programming" and open ended requirements. (there's no plan, no end-goal to measure against) This is also in part why bugs linger for a long time, and get re-inserted.
In short; It wouldn't be hard to produce a priogram that did SOME of what PCGen does a lot better, It would be VERY HARD to produce a program that did ALL of what PCGen does a lot better. Or rather, it would be hard to do it this year
Lets be straight;
PCGen is the best Character Generator out there, by an order of magnitude.
On the other hand, it has some problems:
- Its stupidly SLOW
- It has some fundamental bugs in
- New revisions are released too fast
- There seems to be little cohesion of development effort
There are obvious reasons for most of these;
Its slow because they use Java, but the developers have a "euphamism inserted" for Java, so won't admit that their program is slow due to it.
It still has a lot of low-level bugs because A; fixing old bugs isn't "exciting" and B; there is minimal testing before release.
New revisions; 1 a week is too frequent, it destroys your testing time (for instance that embarrassing release where someone removed the alignment setting section completely - proving that the release had never been tested at all)
No cohesion; well thats a symptom of both "community programming" and open ended requirements. (there's no plan, no end-goal to measure against) This is also in part why bugs linger for a long time, and get re-inserted.
In short; It wouldn't be hard to produce a priogram that did SOME of what PCGen does a lot better, It would be VERY HARD to produce a program that did ALL of what PCGen does a lot better. Or rather, it would be hard to do it this year
Eternalknight
First Post
You have just pointed out most of the things I hate about it. For me to really like it, it needs to be quicker, and come out a bit slower... more testing to it to eliminate bugs would be good.
I really like the fact that they're making the attempt to include everything from WotC and D20 publishers.
However, overall I think it's more trouble than it's worth. I have some newer players who use it as a crutch, and when it's wrong (due to a bug or whatever), they have a hard time accepting that. For example, I had a ninth level Elven ranger send me her character, and she had five feats (in addition to her ranger feats). I told her that a ninth level non-human ranger should only have four feats, and she said PCGen had had her pick that many, so it must be right. I explained the rules by which feats are acquired, and explained how that would leave her with four, and she reiterated that PCGen had given her five feats, so it must be right. I ended up winning that one, but it wouldn't have come up if she'd just followed the rules in the PH (which she owns) instead of relying on PCGen.
It also has so many bugs that I find I need to go through and manually add everything up anyway to verify that it's correct, so what's the point of having a program do it for me? Some of it is simple and obvious, like a dual wielding player in my group that PCGen shows as doing 1d6+1 with his off hand quarterstaff attack, despite his strength 18. If he equips two kurkis, the offhand kukri does the expected 1d4+2, so why is it calculating the quarterstaff incorrectly? I've seen it make numerous errors in adding up attack and skill bonuses. I also find it to be very difficult to use customer magic items.
However, overall I think it's more trouble than it's worth. I have some newer players who use it as a crutch, and when it's wrong (due to a bug or whatever), they have a hard time accepting that. For example, I had a ninth level Elven ranger send me her character, and she had five feats (in addition to her ranger feats). I told her that a ninth level non-human ranger should only have four feats, and she said PCGen had had her pick that many, so it must be right. I explained the rules by which feats are acquired, and explained how that would leave her with four, and she reiterated that PCGen had given her five feats, so it must be right. I ended up winning that one, but it wouldn't have come up if she'd just followed the rules in the PH (which she owns) instead of relying on PCGen.
It also has so many bugs that I find I need to go through and manually add everything up anyway to verify that it's correct, so what's the point of having a program do it for me? Some of it is simple and obvious, like a dual wielding player in my group that PCGen shows as doing 1d6+1 with his off hand quarterstaff attack, despite his strength 18. If he equips two kurkis, the offhand kukri does the expected 1d4+2, so why is it calculating the quarterstaff incorrectly? I've seen it make numerous errors in adding up attack and skill bonuses. I also find it to be very difficult to use customer magic items.
Hi MonkeyBoy,
I'm now going to reply to some of your post.
"Its stupidly SLOW "
Yes Java is slower but the programers except the slower performance for the cross-platform benifets.
Also on a more recent computer it performs fine.
They are working on performance issues and the changes are happening over the next few months.
"It has some fundamental bugs in"
Bugs are a part of programing, but they do work hard at fixing the ones that cannot be worked around. If there is a work around it gets fixed promptly.
New revisions are released too fast
It is released weekly as a Beta version. This is where it gets tested. In an upcomming month there will be an official release that would be put through the testing frenzy before release.
This will happen when the GUI change is complete, the performance is optimized some, documentation is finished and bugs are fixed.
There seems to be little cohesion of development effort
It started out without much cohesion but they have set rules they go by now. They all do it in there free time and have all done a wonderful job.
I hope some of this explains some things for you of pcgens point of view.
-Matt
I'm now going to reply to some of your post.
"Its stupidly SLOW "
Yes Java is slower but the programers except the slower performance for the cross-platform benifets.
Also on a more recent computer it performs fine.
They are working on performance issues and the changes are happening over the next few months.
"It has some fundamental bugs in"
Bugs are a part of programing, but they do work hard at fixing the ones that cannot be worked around. If there is a work around it gets fixed promptly.
New revisions are released too fast
It is released weekly as a Beta version. This is where it gets tested. In an upcomming month there will be an official release that would be put through the testing frenzy before release.
This will happen when the GUI change is complete, the performance is optimized some, documentation is finished and bugs are fixed.
There seems to be little cohesion of development effort
It started out without much cohesion but they have set rules they go by now. They all do it in there free time and have all done a wonderful job.
I hope some of this explains some things for you of pcgens point of view.
-Matt
Eternalknight
First Post
Thanks for your replies guys. Francom13: Yes, the develpoers have done a splendid job on PC Gen, but by making it cross-platform and sacrificing speed for it means that, although they are a allowing non-Windows users to use it, are making it so that those with older computers can't use it either (without waiting an eternity). I admire them for their efforts, they just need to make it slightly better.
Well, so far they 8 vote is the most, but the average is 5.65.
Well, so far they 8 vote is the most, but the average is 5.65.
MonkeyBoy
First Post
francom13 said:Yes Java is slower but the programers except the slower performance for the cross-platform benifets.
Also on a more recent computer it performs fine.
They are working on performance issues and the changes are happening over the next few months.
As an aside I'd note that a _lot_ of the users don't accept the performance hit for the cross-platform benefits. Largely due to only owning windows computers...
Could you define "more recent computers"? Because if my Athlon 800 with 1/2 gig of ram is not "more recent" then we have differing views on reasonable resource usage. (its turgid on that system, an embarrassment IMO)
Bugs are a part of programing, but they do work hard at fixing the ones that cannot be worked around. If there is a work around it gets fixed promptly.
My point was veiled, but it was that the underlying bugs remain while effort goes into new features. I'm a professional SW quality engineer BTW; I know all about bugs
It is released weekly as a Beta version. This is where it gets tested. In an upcomming month there will be an official release that would be put through the testing frenzy before release.
Thats an "interesting" approach to quality.
This will happen when the GUI change is complete, the performance is optimized some, documentation is finished and bugs are fixed.
This is a foreshadowing of my following point re; cohesion. "And they don't have a planned DATE for this?"
[Quote from MonkeyBoy]
"This is a foreshadowing of my following point re; cohesion. "And they don't have a planned DATE for this?""
Since they work on the project in their free time they decided to set the release off of when the program has the functionality they want instead of a specific date that will keep being pushed back till the functionality is available. Seems reasonable to me this way since they are not being paid to make a deadline.
[Quote from MonkeyBoy]
"Could you define "more recent computers"? Because if my Athlon 800 with 1/2 gig of ram is not "more recent" then we have differing views on reasonable resource usage. (its turgid on that system, an embarrassment IMO) "
It works really well on my system PIII 700, 256MB RAM, Java 1.4, Voodoo 3 card, Win 98 SE.
It also works well on my system at work: PIII 700, 384 MB RAM, Java 1.4, Win 2k Service pack 2.
It works horribly slow on loads with my other work system: P200, 192 MB RAM, Java 1.3.1_02. But after the load time if I work only on 1 character it isn't too bad, but I wouldn't use it this way on a daily basis.
I really don't know how you have your system setup but it should perform really well. If you have not upgraded to Java 1.4 I highly recomend it. The speed increase will be noticable.
WORKING Well = 15 to 21 seconds to start with auto load sources + 6 to 8 seconds to start a new character or load a premade.
Horrrible = start and walk away for a couple of minutes, load character walk away for a few more minutes then it works without much hassle.
Bugs:
They have mostly shutdown feature requests while the GUI conversion is going on and plan to hit the bugs once the GUI is complete.
Quality:
They have a CVS version which is their Alpha version that they run general tests the day before release. The weekly release is Beta. It is going to have some bugs that slip through. I have the tendancy to stick with a build that is realativly bug free in the areas I use only updating when a feature or bug that affected me was fixed.
-Matt
"This is a foreshadowing of my following point re; cohesion. "And they don't have a planned DATE for this?""
Since they work on the project in their free time they decided to set the release off of when the program has the functionality they want instead of a specific date that will keep being pushed back till the functionality is available. Seems reasonable to me this way since they are not being paid to make a deadline.
[Quote from MonkeyBoy]
"Could you define "more recent computers"? Because if my Athlon 800 with 1/2 gig of ram is not "more recent" then we have differing views on reasonable resource usage. (its turgid on that system, an embarrassment IMO) "
It works really well on my system PIII 700, 256MB RAM, Java 1.4, Voodoo 3 card, Win 98 SE.
It also works well on my system at work: PIII 700, 384 MB RAM, Java 1.4, Win 2k Service pack 2.
It works horribly slow on loads with my other work system: P200, 192 MB RAM, Java 1.3.1_02. But after the load time if I work only on 1 character it isn't too bad, but I wouldn't use it this way on a daily basis.
I really don't know how you have your system setup but it should perform really well. If you have not upgraded to Java 1.4 I highly recomend it. The speed increase will be noticable.
WORKING Well = 15 to 21 seconds to start with auto load sources + 6 to 8 seconds to start a new character or load a premade.
Horrrible = start and walk away for a couple of minutes, load character walk away for a few more minutes then it works without much hassle.
Bugs:
They have mostly shutdown feature requests while the GUI conversion is going on and plan to hit the bugs once the GUI is complete.
Quality:
They have a CVS version which is their Alpha version that they run general tests the day before release. The weekly release is Beta. It is going to have some bugs that slip through. I have the tendancy to stick with a build that is realativly bug free in the areas I use only updating when a feature or bug that affected me was fixed.
-Matt
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